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Honest Opinions For Cold Feet!!
- Thread starter PLECKO
- Start date
High Octane
New Member
What kind of vinyl are you guys using on your Versacamms and also could someone give me some idea of the cost per foot for four color process on vinyl...with verscamm
Fred Weiss
Merchant Member
It seems to me that there's a fair bit of over complicating the decision going on.
Choosing between brands is like Ford vs Chevy vs whoever. Each has benefits and disadvantages but all will make you a great return if you have any kind of a market to operate in. Whether or not there are competitors on every corner has no bearing ... the only thing that matters is whether or not you can sell enough output to cost justify the investment, the space and environment you must provide, and the learning curve you must climb.
I find it amazing how rarely anyone suggests or considers jobbing production work out, especially when one is uncertain they can sell enough work to justify acquiring in-house production. My store writes 150 to 200 orders a month and there are five competitors within two miles of my store. My guess is they all do as well or better than we do.
But I could easily justify a printer larger than my Edge and yet I haven't made that move. The reason is simple. I find it much more convenient to sell, design and finish the work and to farm out the actual printing and cutting. Example: I just filled an order for two separate full color 2 x 6 banners for $190 each. I designed them and finished them. The sign shop a mile up the street printed them for me on his Mimaki JV-3 for $62.50 each. I took $127.50 each with no other costs except six grommets and eight feet of banner tape. Time involvement was about three and one half hours. I had a repeat order from Lockheed Oceanographic Systems for two more 24 x 24 decals for the midget subs they build. We charge $125 each for them. My friend two miles away with a Summa DC-3 had my job on file and charges me $24 each. I apply a clear spray overcoat, weed and mask them.
I should also point out that both these shops buy Edge output from me.
So if you consider this in the options column, you will see that your choices are all good ones. You can get nothing and still sell work. You can get a 30" and still outsource wider work. Or you can get a 48" or a 54" and do it all in-house.
Choosing between brands is like Ford vs Chevy vs whoever. Each has benefits and disadvantages but all will make you a great return if you have any kind of a market to operate in. Whether or not there are competitors on every corner has no bearing ... the only thing that matters is whether or not you can sell enough output to cost justify the investment, the space and environment you must provide, and the learning curve you must climb.
I find it amazing how rarely anyone suggests or considers jobbing production work out, especially when one is uncertain they can sell enough work to justify acquiring in-house production. My store writes 150 to 200 orders a month and there are five competitors within two miles of my store. My guess is they all do as well or better than we do.
But I could easily justify a printer larger than my Edge and yet I haven't made that move. The reason is simple. I find it much more convenient to sell, design and finish the work and to farm out the actual printing and cutting. Example: I just filled an order for two separate full color 2 x 6 banners for $190 each. I designed them and finished them. The sign shop a mile up the street printed them for me on his Mimaki JV-3 for $62.50 each. I took $127.50 each with no other costs except six grommets and eight feet of banner tape. Time involvement was about three and one half hours. I had a repeat order from Lockheed Oceanographic Systems for two more 24 x 24 decals for the midget subs they build. We charge $125 each for them. My friend two miles away with a Summa DC-3 had my job on file and charges me $24 each. I apply a clear spray overcoat, weed and mask them.
I should also point out that both these shops buy Edge output from me.
So if you consider this in the options column, you will see that your choices are all good ones. You can get nothing and still sell work. You can get a 30" and still outsource wider work. Or you can get a 48" or a 54" and do it all in-house.
Do you mean geographically, or why am I not monitoring every word hereColin said:Hey GraphiXtreme, where are you?
I'll assume the latter. I had a pretty good sized install today, Sunday of all days. Did some window lettering for a store that's moving, the same business that I may have this sort of "soft partnership" with. Kinda torn as what to charge them, but that's another topic. Install was for two picture windows, about 8' tall x almost 10' wide each. I put about 6' x 7' on one and about 4' x 7' on the other, mostly 1-color (white) but also had a couple of good portions with burgundy outline. Reason I say all this is if I had a printer, I COULD have printed these 2-color lettering elements. I used Arlon HiPerf white and burgundy at $.68/sq ft for white and $.79/sq ft for colors. Total size for these elements was approx. 2' x 7'. My cost: approx. $21 each. Cost if printed (assuming cast, cuz that's what I used here): approx. $12 each for a savings of $9 each and 1/2 the labor (only weed one and only install one). I'd say that is worth about 1 hour total between cutting/weeding/masking the second color AND installing it, maybe even a bit more (I'm still kinda slow I think). I charge $60/hr so that's about $70 saved for each one (although I don't know if you can say I could have actually "saved" the labor, cuz I am charging for it). But if so, I could have saved myself approx. $140 on this job if I would have printed it myself. Having it outsourced would have been different. Also, if I would have laminated them, that labor savings might be a total wash - so maybe no real savings at all except for an easier install. This is also a case where I'm not so sure printed is any better. Sure I COULD have made the lettering a lot more "whiz-bang" with Photoshop effects and all, but is it value added for something like this?
Now having went thru all that, do you charge the same, or do you charge less (the assumed "savings") and just do more jobs?
On a similar note, I do a fair amount of vehicle lettering installed on windows. Often times, it just doesn't make sense to print many of the elements that go into them. How do I justify printing in these cases?
Right now, I get a VERY good deal on my wholesale digital prints, so that is another reason I hem and haw around with this. Granted, I could produce them for approx. 1/3 or 1/4 the price, but I also don't have the costs and headaches associated with the hardware & software. I want a printer just the same. I ANALyze the $h1t out of these things, so I don't know where the heck I stand most of the time.
I know that if I had a printer, that I'd push it more, simply because it would be easier and cheaper for me to produce than to outsource. But right now, I don't currently do enough wholesale volume to truly justify it either. Part of that is I just don't push it as much since I want to keep as much profit in my pocket as possible, but also the nature of what I've historically done simply doesn't require a print.
Anyway, enough rambling in this reply, but those are SOME of my thoughts, Colin - in case 60 minutes bores you
Colin said:
Anyway, enough rambling in this reply, but those are SOME of my thoughts, Colin - in case 60 minutes bores you
I can see outsourcing as effective for printing signs ( that's what I was going to do), I'm thinking my versa-cam300 will be paid for in one year. I'm in a very small market, have only had the machine 3 months and use it 50 / 50 for most jobs. My cutter is still the workhorse BUT--I have so much more capability now.
No regrets..so far..lol.
Ken
Anyway, enough rambling in this reply, but those are SOME of my thoughts, Colin - in case 60 minutes bores you
I can see outsourcing as effective for printing signs ( that's what I was going to do), I'm thinking my versa-cam300 will be paid for in one year. I'm in a very small market, have only had the machine 3 months and use it 50 / 50 for most jobs. My cutter is still the workhorse BUT--I have so much more capability now.
No regrets..so far..lol.
Ken
Driving Force
New Member
All I can say is, a year ago I didnt have a big printer. I had an edge. I talked myself into a roland SC540. a year later I dont know how we ever got by without it. I just picked up another printer two weeks ago( Seiko colorpainter) and both machines are running close to full time. You would be amazed at how you change the way you design. Now you can add lots of colors without worrying about layers. In my experience, if you are looking at a first machine I would definately go with the Roland. The are a very good printer and very easy to learn. I really like the print cut on one machine. I use signlab and can only say good things about it, at least as far as the Roland goes. I think it handles colors better and the work flow is amazingly easy. there are a few instances where colorip is a better choice, but I dont think any one software can do it all.
As far as laminating, you really need to get a film laminator. They are not affected by anything. Try rubbing a little enamel reducer on a liquid laminate, it will ruin it at least when it is relativly fresh.
I really feel that if you dont get into digital printing soon, you will be way behind. Other shops will blow you away with pricing as well as output quality.
The other selling point of your own machine is friday afternoon when you ruin a print, If you outsource you are probably screwed. and what about the guy who has a last minute change, do you have to wait? I hate having to rely on someone elses quality and time frame.
Go for at least a 48" output, you wont be sorry.
As far as laminating, you really need to get a film laminator. They are not affected by anything. Try rubbing a little enamel reducer on a liquid laminate, it will ruin it at least when it is relativly fresh.
I really feel that if you dont get into digital printing soon, you will be way behind. Other shops will blow you away with pricing as well as output quality.
The other selling point of your own machine is friday afternoon when you ruin a print, If you outsource you are probably screwed. and what about the guy who has a last minute change, do you have to wait? I hate having to rely on someone elses quality and time frame.
Go for at least a 48" output, you wont be sorry.
Techman
New Member
Remember. If your printer is not running enough to cover the payments, materials and your wages. PLUS profit, then it is costing you. You must make a decent analysis into purchasing your work or purchasing a printer.
Also, get as big a printer as you can get. I got a encad 736 which prints @ 36 inches. It does a load of work especially contour cut decals. However. I also have a 60" encad that makes full size panels. Both printers are running enough work to pay their own way. Some people think they must have the most modern latest and greatest machine on the planet. However, I got my encads used and at very reasonable prices. I make money and am saving to buy a solvent machine this time next year. (maybe) I plan to pay cash for the printer.
You have two choices. Buy your work, or do it yourself.
If you do it yourself with a brand new $30 grand machine then you must have at least a couple jobs a day 5 days a week. Otherwise you should job it out.
Or you can buy a used machine and have a lower overhead. Then you charge the right price and build up your job list and save up to pay cash for a brand new latest and greatest.
Also, get as big a printer as you can get. I got a encad 736 which prints @ 36 inches. It does a load of work especially contour cut decals. However. I also have a 60" encad that makes full size panels. Both printers are running enough work to pay their own way. Some people think they must have the most modern latest and greatest machine on the planet. However, I got my encads used and at very reasonable prices. I make money and am saving to buy a solvent machine this time next year. (maybe) I plan to pay cash for the printer.
You have two choices. Buy your work, or do it yourself.
If you do it yourself with a brand new $30 grand machine then you must have at least a couple jobs a day 5 days a week. Otherwise you should job it out.
Or you can buy a used machine and have a lower overhead. Then you charge the right price and build up your job list and save up to pay cash for a brand new latest and greatest.
JR Digital
New Member
I didn't really make a proft until i started selling wholesale. I paid cash for my SJ740 EX proII in 2002.. my ROI was around 6 months. So did my hp5500's .. I now have 3 hp5500's a sj740expro2, and just signed the paperwork on my new toy.. 16' NUR Expedio UV 5000 grand format..
Cant wait for it to get here! But the soljet is a workhorse. I've had that machine running day and night.. even now! Especially since i got a bulk ink upgrade. But It Cant keep up with how much work i get now. I opted to get a sj-1000 or a mimaki jv3-250.. ($70,000k) price range. But after crunching alot of numbers, doing alot of research, and testing, I decided to purchase a NUR UV curable ink printer. high quality, one pass !!!.. But at a hefty $550,000 price tag. I started out pricing my banners at 10$ sqft. for those of you who can get someone to pay you that much, you are lucky. In today's competitive market, you can only really make big bucks pumping out banners all day long at a low price. I dont even have a plotter. i outsource those jobs.. I pay $1 per sq ft. for diecut letters to my vendor. how can you make any money with prices like that ???! The competitive rate for digital now starts around $5-6 per sq ft., $4-2 wholesale. I predict that in 2 years , it will be half that. So If you're thinking about getting into digital. better hurry up!
Cant wait for it to get here! But the soljet is a workhorse. I've had that machine running day and night.. even now! Especially since i got a bulk ink upgrade. But It Cant keep up with how much work i get now. I opted to get a sj-1000 or a mimaki jv3-250.. ($70,000k) price range. But after crunching alot of numbers, doing alot of research, and testing, I decided to purchase a NUR UV curable ink printer. high quality, one pass !!!.. But at a hefty $550,000 price tag. I started out pricing my banners at 10$ sqft. for those of you who can get someone to pay you that much, you are lucky. In today's competitive market, you can only really make big bucks pumping out banners all day long at a low price. I dont even have a plotter. i outsource those jobs.. I pay $1 per sq ft. for diecut letters to my vendor. how can you make any money with prices like that ???! The competitive rate for digital now starts around $5-6 per sq ft., $4-2 wholesale. I predict that in 2 years , it will be half that. So If you're thinking about getting into digital. better hurry up!