Honor among thieves. Who is the competition?

[Techman]

Some 55 years ago I first saw the magic flowing from the brush of a sign painter. I remember being so completely fascinated that I watched him until he was done with the panel. It must have taken at least an hour or more. That says something about the magic for a 7 yr old to stand mesmerized for a complete panel.

One day another painter came by and asked for some paint. My mentor gave him some and I was again puzzled as to why he would do that. After all it was his paint and I knew how valuable it was to him. He answered by simply saying " he needed it". He will pay it back twice what I gave him. A few days later it came back in a brand new full can. A lesson well learned. He said... The other guy was not any competition to me. He is a brother in the craft. He said the competition was the general public who had no idea of the skill required to do his magic. The competition was the mercenary who would attempt to take advantage and fail to return. The competition was anyone who would beat down the price of anything he had.

Epiphany,, Competition is anyone who beats down the price..

Over the years I came to understand a special bond among sign painters from different walks of life. I had the privilege to host and be hosted by sign painters from literally around the world. One memorable New Years eve was when Dave and Liddy Drane and his brother in-law and sister from traveling Australia spent New Years evening with me and my two boys detonating fireworks at my home. Such is the bond of the old guard when merely knowing someone by name yet had never met was enough to create conversation and every thing in common. This was not the first experience with the "brotherhood". Over the years discovering someone in need meant something had to be done. Sharing of materials, resources, knowledge, and bread was the way it is. Some kind of aid was in store especially if one suffered a serious setback through no fault of their own.

I think the guys in the original Letterheads at their first gathering in their were expressing an unwritten but thoroughly understood spiritual bond. It was loosely defined but not spoken understanding. They just knew it, experienced it and wanted it to grow. I went to many a letterhead meet and was embraced like a family member. One meet I watched a guest get asked to leave. I didn't get it was to why he was kicked out. But later I figured it out. That guy was a mercenary competition.

The lesson.
Some decades ago I worked with an old crotchety geezer who cussed me, them, every one and anything every day and all day. He was especially fierce at any and every perceived lack of respect towards him and especially his beloved brush skills. The shop was a mess but his brushes were immaculate. The paint shelves had hundreds of can of 1 shot in various stages of use. Each can carried the remnants of every job produced. Drips and runs defined each color at a glance. There was no searching of labels. The gist was right there in plain view. Some cans were way beyond having any value as paint. Yet there they sat in all their glory never to be thrown away. He held on to them not because he was a hoarder. But because they represented that is the way he wanted things to be. Valued, and prized forever. Those cans were icons representing the value of a bond. I've observed that shelf of paints in so many shops from one side of this country to the other. It seems to be among the first areas of value in a shop visit.

A particularly hot day he blessed out a dude that came into the shop asking for some kind of pointer on some job. It was an eye opening event as the guy turned on his heel and jogged out the door. Jacksonville was hot during the summer. But it was very hot that day. Not because of the summer heart but because of the lesson. He said the guy was stealing his secrets. It was a conundrum of epic proportions. Stealing secrets? On one hand he was allowing me to get some carefully measured pointers yet at the same time he was hostile to any one else looking for a tidbit of an idea. At the time the first thought was this old curmudgeon had no time to teach anything to future competition. He said that many times over the months. Future competition? Was he fearful of competition? How could he with all the work he had. Was I not future competition? The question remained unanswered for years.

Now I am at the old curmudgeon's age and the question returned with a clear answer. First and foremost he wasn't against competition from fellow sign painters.. He was fighting against something else. He was fighting against the decay of the spiritual bond. He was rejecting the competition. Yes that is what he meant. There is an unspoken honor among fellow artisans who all know respect of each others ability. He was all for building a personal relationship with others at the same time was against being treated as a commodity. He was all about respecting each others willingness to come to the aid of another whether it was for paints, substrates, or knowledge and trade each with a fair value. Each was given and yet each was returned many times over. Unneeded supplies would pass on to another and the receiver would pay whatever was asked. First, all knew it held value. Second it was worth the price. Both artisans would come together in mutual aid avoiding the dickering, bartering, and attempts to cheap the other. The price was one fraction of the deal. The bond was a much bigger part of immeasurable value.

Has this type of behavior appeared on this board? Many times a new member would post and take an immediate beating while a different new member would post and be welcomed. What was the difference? Was one perceived as a future brother with a personal bond. Or was he perceived as competition and a mercenary?

In our interaction with others in the business.. Do we interact with each other as competition or do we act with a mutual benefit for all?

What do you think? Please tell me.

 

[Biker Scout]

It's usually in the words they choose to use when asking for advice. You can tell, even in a typed written post that they are only looking for a leg up, and won't share in return. The greeting is much like a "Hi, howya doin'?" handshake. Come into my shop and shoot the chit with me. Let's go to lunch. THEN ask me some stuff, and maybe I'll share it with you. Don't come into my shop and start snooping around at my machines, my equipment, asking what brands, checking out my work table. Don't be staring hard at my computer desk to see what I'm working on, or glance at my screen to try and start up a conversation that way. Just comes across as nosy, and it's unwarranted. So many shady people in every business, but it seems the creative field has the most... probably because we are creative.

 

[Laz0924]

I haven't been on this forum very long but have been on other forums for years and a moderator for 1, this is my take. The people who get bashed are usally posting an open ended question or many questions at one time and members precieve it as someone who wants the answers without putting in the time to learn it on thier own. They get insulted by the newbie because of the way it was asked not so much because they are thought of as competition, I think they should be better directed as to how to find the answers they are looking for and not bashed. Some of these people are truly ignorant and I don't mean that in a bad way they just don't know any better. I have read most of the newbie posts and compared to other forums when newbies ask similar questions on this forum they get hammered, this is just an observation as I see it, I personally know better as to how to ask a question.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it...

 

[OldPaint]

as one of the "old grumps"..........who was also mesmerized by a sign painter at an early age, and that sign painter seeing the awe within me....and decided to take me as a student and give me all he could in our short time together(little over a year, he was found dead in another town, in his office/shop/home. car)little did i know at that the value of what he gave me. for many years i played at sign painting. then i did the "jobs" every person should do till one day at the age of 42, after getting fired by a 21 year old kid.....i picked up my brushes........and never applied for a JOB AGAIN!!!!!!!
as i see the once proud trade/talent fade into computer vinyl and print........by people who cant draw stick figures or have any idea what colors to mix together to get another color..........i just wish i had someone willing to learn what i know...........before i to am dust.

 

[visual800]

In our town we have about 20 legitimate sign companies. I do installs for 7 of these companies. We swap or buy vinyl, magnets or other stuff on friendly basis. One of these companies do all my routing. If we didnt work together it wouldnt get done efficiently. We bounce ideas off each other and get opinions on art. We warn others if loser customers are beating bushes looking for cheap prices and wasting time.

now older I dont warm up to new companies too quick. When new folks come on here digging for info right off the bat I usually answer unless I feel they logged on just to dig

 

[TimToad]

As a newcomer to this site, but a veteran of the trade since 1980, I have a few thoughts on the subject that I hope can stimulate further discussion. While appreciative of the mystique and time honed perception of this magical camaraderie many of us believe harkens back to simpler times and was widespread in its manifestation, I'm not quite sure that belief isn't borne more from a want than a true reality.

Having helped organize, conduct a seminar at and attend my first major Letterhead meet in 1985 in Chicago at the tender age of 23, I saw then and since then have seen plenty of examples of brain sucking, opportunistic spying, overt competitiveness, etc..

Isn't just a tad bit naive to believe that our craft is one devoid of petty jealousies, competitive impulses and the like?

While I have devoted my life and career to being an ethical person of high character, is it fair for me to have as high of expectations of others as I have for myself? Probably not.

Many of the old school, wall dog types I apprenticed under in the early 80's were old enough to share stories of the seasonal barnstorming days when the cold winters of Chicago forced a journeyman sign painter to hit the road to feed his family during those lean months. The very term "journeyman" came from those times. Stories of slashed tires, stolen brushes, paint, gold leaf, etc. were not as uncommon as many of us probably want to believe out of respect for this romantic vision we have of things.

The characters and times may have changed but we are all still in essentially the most overtly competitive culture in world history.

How many of us haven't pored over every page of the Atkinson manual, Delamotte, Strong, Stevens books, etc. then "incorporated" stylistic elements into our work. Even with the highest level of respect for our crafts forebearers, alot of what many of us have done could be loosely defined as plagarism if we worked in the spoken word instead of the drawn word.

I try to give people a break whenever I can and accept the premise that perhaps my example of hopefully being perceived as an ethical, high integrity craftsperson could be one of the things attracting newcomer's questions or interest and not a simple info grab. Life is loaded with plenty of cynicism opportunities, being approached by someone trying to educate themselves on our very nuts and bolts craft should not be automatically viewed as an invasion of scared and inviolate ground. This ain't brain surgery we're doing, its mostly basic advertisement production work. And these days its a lot more simple reproduction work than anything magical or mystical.

Thanks for letting me share,

Tim

 

[Techman]

And there it is.. Tims post is a good pointer.

The old guys were hating on the competition (takers) and mercenaries (thieves) and striving on existing on a higher plane..

 

[TimToad]

"Hatin on", I don't think so. We are a far more insecure society in the last few decades. The 1%ers want us that way in order to suppress wages and preserve the insane and highly unstable income inequity that our society suffers from. There is much power and authority to be derived from a 500 to 1 ratio between the executive class and the worker class as we have right now.

We all worry too much. We have been trained and indoctrinated to fear our neighbors, co-workers, strangers, other races, religions, other cultures, etc. This comes back to haunt us because we rarely can overcome those fears to pull together for all of our own good. This is one of the biggest differences I see in today's sign industry compared to even just 35 years ago when I got started. Unfortunately, this isn't just limited to our industry.

While I empathize with this threads originator's desire for a more integrity based dynamic, I'm afraid the genie was let out of the bottle a long time ago.

When otherwise smart and industrious people can be convinced that they are always in jeopardy and our jobs are at risk, we don't challenge authority, ask tough questions, demand a better standard of living, look out for each other, fight for the collective good, etc.

Despite the limited technology available until only recently that has morphed most shop's work together into little stylistic difference, most sign crafters had a distinguishable style, reputation and reliability that were the primary factors that separated the competition. There was far less mobility and in bigger cities, nearly every neighborhood had its "sign shop" and specialists abounded. In other words, signcrafters didn't need to fear or hate their competition, because enough differences existed to give consumers a clearer choice in the first place. Many of our industry ancestors were notorious in their drinking habits, so reliability was a major influence on who to choose to do your sign. Plus, with so many stylistic choices to choose from, loyalties were derived from a customer's appreciation of the matching of their image to the signcrafter best able to reflect it.

Face it, most customers these days see very little difference between a SignsNow, FASTSIGNS, or Joe's Signarama job stylistically, so price and delivery time become the primary drivers.

Nowadays, the "I'm everything to everyone" mindset has blurred the lines so much that ANYONE in the business is now a competitor and for the more suspicious and or paranoid, "thieves" and "mercenaries". Thanks to greater mobility and far reaching advertising for our services, our "territory" now overlaps over many others in the business, so naturally, we'll feel threatened by a newcomer or what we consider an overzealous mercenary.

In the day, I knew fellow craft people who only did paper splashes for groceries, drug stores, meat markets, etc. My doing a gold leaf window job on the same block of their shop was of little consequence to them and they barely raised an eyebrow to my presence. Or the slam bam real estate production shops who only dabbled in creative work, but could paint or silk screen 50 4'x8's in a day and feel every bit as proud as I would be after lettering a custom tow truck at the body shop next to them.

Well, kind of tapped my well a bit too deeply on the subject, so I'll call it a night.

 

[BobM]

I am also (OP) "one of the "old grumps"..........who was also mesmerized by a sign painter at an early age. Little did I know at that time the value of what he gave me."
Eddie McLeod was the old timer who, while lettering the bookmobiles my Dad manufactured, always took time to explain his work. As an early teenager I looked forward to when Eddie would come to the shop, usually very late in the day, to ply his trade. As the years progressed he would outline the big letters and give me a brush and I would fill in the middles thinking this is easy, I can do that. Now 50 years later I practice in my cellar an hour or so a week trying to make the brushes do what Eddie's did back then. Never dreamed at the time that I would be doing signs and truck lettering, although make no mistake, what I do is not what Eddie did. He taught me things I didn't realize I was learning at the time. But I'm ever thankful that when I see a layout and I inherently know it's not right, that I can look back and remember Eddie telling me that the "spacing between the A and T need be a little closer together than between other letters". I really wish I remembered more. I do a lot of reading, especially old lettering books and when one of Eddie's lessons pops up I miss his patience, his friendship, and his willingness to share. I have the computers and plotters and software. Without them I couldn't make a living. Some day I'll really "letter" a truck. I hope Eddie will be looking down and saying "that looks really good Bob, but you need to add an outline to make it snap". Thank you Eddie McLeod.

 

[FatCat]

I only feel like an "old grump" on certain days...lol.

Anyway, just wanted to say I believe all of this boils down to each individual and how we perceive others in our field. I really don't think it matters if you use a brush, a printer, a cnc machine or a chisel to make a sign. I think we can all look at one another and make our own judgement call on who is a serious sign maker and who isn't. Yes, many of the newbies here get bashed because the way they phrase their questions because it's more like they are saying; "I want the quickest, fastest way to start making money in this field and I want you all to give me those answers without me doing much in return." That doesn't go over so well with folks that have spent countless dollars, late nights, long hours in the hot sun or freezing cold under stress and torment to get something fixed, or make it look and/or work like it should. It took time, effort, sweat and misery to get those answers and they shouldn't be given away freely, or without the belief that giving them to someone will hopefully let it come back to you.

I like to consider myself a student of this industry. I pour over books, online articles, youtube videos, etc. and try to suck in all the knowledge I can like a sponge. I have also made many friends both young and old on this forum and have a good half dozen peers in the Ohio area that I share and swap info and tips and tricks with. We all give and receive in both knowledge and goods. I've had Gary from Circleville recently come to my shop to get a liter of Magenta ink when he ran out, prior to that he helped me laminate a box truck wrap when I didn't yet own a laminator. We talk back and forth all the time and usually can figure out most things when we put our heads together. I also have a similar relationship with Mike Riley at Insignia, Mark up in Ravenna Ohio and Mike Lemar over in Newark. All of these guys call me and I call them when we have questions or concerns. Often times we BS more than we talk shop, but that is half the fun. :Big Laugh

I honestly can't begin to thank everyone who has helped me since starting my business 4 years ago. I am thankful and both humbled at the assistance I have received which has helped feed my family and allow me to grow as a sign maker. However, in return I always try to be helpful to others if their questions are phrased correctly, and I think they are wanting to learn to make this trade better, and not to steal just to make a buck.

 

[ChaseO]

I have to say that it's a bit intimidating to respond to questions that people ask as a newbie to the site. There are so many veterans to the site that sometimes I would rather wait to see what they have to say than to offer my own two cents.

As far as local "competition", most of the shops around here are friendly with each other. There are many times that we will bounce quotes off each other, call each other when submitting bids against each other, refer jobs to each other when we are too busy or it is in their neck of the woods, or subcontract to each other when it deals with something that one of us "specializes" in. This great working relationship has proved over time to be very beneficial to all of us, so I encourage all shops to help one another out. That being said, there are a few shops around who are competition. They typically don't put out quality work, and usually have a 5-10 year life span before they close the doors.

 

[TammieH]

Honestly, I think most of us welcome competition.

Like you, and a lot of others here we started in the sign business when experience, brushes and talent were the main tools of the trade, in the area I worked
(Cincinnati) a lot of the old sign painters knew each, some even started out working for the same company, they also helped each other out in times of need.
Pretty much the same that goes on here on Signs 101

I learned basic layout from the two old sign guys that I worked for, I paid my dues by doing the manual labor of an installer and like a lot of sign painters I learned how to control a brush by painting billboards. Although I never became a full fledged Journeyman sign painter.

My problem with some newbies, is that anyone that knows where the on and off switch is to a computer can start a sign company, and they do so without knowing how to do proper layouts, price jobs and which materials to use or how to install.

I will help people as much as I can, but I do believe it is rude for others to ask how to quote a job, take a business course or something first.

 

[mark in tx]

Developing the gut feeling of who to trust takes a while. I tend to trust until given a reason not to when it comes to other shops, and I seem to be able to figure that out within a short conversation.
It is an unspoken jedi mind trick of the old timers, and they will either teach it to you, or not.

 

[Jillbeans]

I have been friendly with my main competitor for 25 years. I always refer jobs (like electric signs) to his shop. I do paint work for him, now that he is ill and getting up in years. We have swapped materials over the years. He is also a friend.

The new hacks in town will undercut me left and right. They are not real sign makers in my opinion. They can underprice themselves right out of business for all I care, their designs suck and they pollute the area visually. Some are members here, so I don't discuss pricing too often unless it's in the premium section.

I'll be relocating this year, to an area that has one sign person. Unfortunately, they are a good friend and I'll be damned if I am taking business away from them. I plan to sell signs online, design for other sign shops like I've been doing, keep my few remaining "good" clients, and if the sign guy in my new town ever need help, I'll work for them.

Whenever someone calls me wanting a wrap, I refer them to someone I know only from Signs 101, who is somewhat local. I'd rather see him get the job and do it right rather that helping out the hacks.

Everything has changed in the last 10 years. I try to keep my dignity and not hate, but sometimes it's hard. I try to help people online here. I can usually tell whether they are a hack or a genuine newbie who wants to do the right thing.
Love....Jill

 

[Billct2]

An excellent discussion. I guess I am also one of the grumpy old guys, though I keep a lot of it to myself. I also started when turned on by working with an old school signpainter, then trained at Butera Sign Scool and worked for years under other craftsmen learning how this stuff worked, while always hustling side jobs to both hone my skills and pick up a few extra bucks.
Then came the Gerber 4B....

But there were always hacks & scumbags, it's just easier to be exposed to more of them (thanks to the web) and thanks to computers there are way more of them. It's also not as obvious to the client that their sign sucks, after all the fonts & images are "perfect". When it was done by hand at least a lot of pretenders were exposed when the quality of their work was obviously lacking.

I have a small group of "competitors" that I work cooperatively with, but I will admit I'm not stopping in every time a new shop opens with donuts and a handshake.

 

[anthonyd969]

Examples of some local guys through the years...

I haven't ever posted here but I find myself here lately looking for answers and opinions on my next machine.
Though that's no the topic after reading some views of others I felt I needed to give my experience through time on other local guys.
So I hope no one minds I posted here also.

I learned sign painting and hand lettering back in the early 80's from a local art school. Then came to work for a few sign companies through the next few years. As I progressed I started getting friends who had businesses start to ask can you do some work for me and I built myself a nice group of referral work through the years.

In 1989 I decided to take a shot and opened up a sign and graphics shop with a friend. I purchased my Gerber 4b to try and be more productive. He did custom auto & truck accessories. We just split a 2,000 sq ft shop only. Not business partners. Needless to say it was a great 5 years. Through that time I had 2 different young guys try and steal work and open there own thing, but to no avail they ruined the paint on 2 cars and a truck. LOL (lacquer and acetone prep on fresh paint...HA HA).
Can't teach them everything is how I feel. Example 1

From there I moved out of that shop and into a larger shop down the road as my "Friend" and I grew. Needless to say my car accessory "Friend" sneakily purchased the small Roland with the ribbons. He never even mentioned it and we spoke daily. He hid it in a back room till I caught someone I had done the designs for and it turned up lettered in a parking lot next to me. I asked and unfortunately it was him. I was pissed and felt somewhat cheated. Though he was missing the painted & airbrushed striping I had worked up the lettering was close but then again it was nothing fancy of a design the guy wanted.
The end of our friendship. example 2

Later in the years to come a local friend did the same thing after seeing me making it purchased a computer and 4b and he was giving it a shot. (He is still at it but the work still is beginner stuff 20 years later) example 3

7 years ago I move back to the town I grew up in and started in.
I had a family friend who kept bringing his high school son around and asking my questions about various things in my shop. Not thinking anything of it he says he was graduating and why don't I hire him as help. I didn't feel right with it so I said no.
Well I get a call a few weeks later from my local supplier who I was dealing with for decades and he starts telling me he sold a 30" small printer to some local guy in town. To no avail it turns out to be this family friend and his son.
That week I see him at the local store and I put him on the spot saying I heard he purchased a machine. he tells me yea, it's for my sons hobby and don't worry I was looking for a small garage across the town... YEA RIGHT!!! 2 weeks later he is EXACTLY 50 FEET TO THE LEFT OF ME ACROSS THE STREET!
The best was he tried to steal jobs from me when a few customers had gone to the wrong shop first, but then realized this kid had know knowledge of anything but high school art. 1 1/2 years later done and gone. Daddy's money dried up.

Through that same time I had a local Sign franchise owner (unmentioned) approach me and stop in "not to" introduce himself as the new owner, but to say he was giving his cards out to my building neighbors, then tell me "Why don't you just close the doors and come work for me before I put you out of business" Can you believe the "B's" on this guy. I basically told him to take a flight and get out. Later the next week I was at a wrap class at a local supplier who known me since the mid 80's. This guy walks up to me at the class again and says "I am wasting my time and work for him". The manager looks at this guy and says "your a furniture salesman and have no idea who your talking to". this guy has been in the field since the 80's painting, airbrushing and lettering."
So, this owner comes in again 2 weeks later and apologizes, but asks how do I strip vinyl off old bronze aluminum panels and get rid of the shadow? LMAO.... Yea right! Take a walk J.O.
Anyway, 9 months later to no avail he sold the business. Now to a guy who did trucking and no art background?
This guy has a whole different approach, he does come in to introduce himself and seems like a nice guy. We get along for about a year before I catch the news from one of my fellow County Officer's that this guy was being closed down for embezzlement! (Now in jail)
NEXT... Another guy I know from the next town over not in the field either buys the franchise. He doesn't admit it till I find out. After he came to me for about 3 quotes saying they were for friends. Then I see the banners up! Unbelievable right?

But were not done yet...Now, another guy just moved about 100 yards from me who was in the next town over. So here we go again. He's another I couldn't trust. He needed my help when his laminater went a year prior. He needed about 50 feet of prints done for a job next morning so I helped him out and stayed late. Now you sneak in and rent 2 buildings over from me and never say anything? 3 months now.

I don''t know but these things have surely pissed me off and made me sour through the years!

I do have friends in the business still from the start. We are spread out in local towns and but we never hurt each other. We actually have a laugh when we get the same customer price shopping and we corner them. :Big Laugh

Sorry it was so lengthy everyone.

 

[Rick]

I see a big surge in the art of hand lettering, sharing of information,
and I see very talented young designers, artists and lettering artists
making money.

At some point, we get too old, too cynical, and too set in out ways
to see the potential in our work, fail to seek out new ways to sell it,
are maybe we are not really that good. I see quite a few young
artists and designers who are putting in the effort and reaping the
rewards and I'm in awe of these young lettering designers and artists.

On the other hand, we also have the Charleton's peddling their schemes
to undermine the art of the business. These are not artist, or designers.
These are "replicators" and "bamboozlers"... nothing wrong with
replicating. It's what most of us do. But undermining the "art" of the
business is not the way to go about it.

 

[anthonyd969]

I see a big surge in the art of hand lettering, sharing of information,
and I see very talented young designers, artists and lettering artists
making money.

At some point, we get too old, too cynical, and too set in out ways
to see the potential in our work, fail to seek out new ways to sell it,
are maybe we are not really that good. I see quite a few young
artists and designers who are putting in the effort and reaping the
rewards and I'm in awe of these young lettering designers and artists.

On the other hand, we also have the Charleton's peddling their schemes
to undermine the art of the business. These are not artist, or designers.
These are "replicators" and "bamboozlers"... nothing wrong with
replicating. It's what most of us do. But undermining the "art" of the
business is not the way to go about it.

True about Chaleton's scheming and undermining businesses. My wife says all the time, it will turn and bite them right in the A $ $! LOL.
I still take allot of pride in what I do. My customers through the years know I am a pain in the butt about letting something go out the door if it's not 100% That's what has kept me around for all these years I feel too. There are talented people out there too, yes.
Thanks and God Bless!