How do you handle clients ideas vs logo design?

[mmblarg]

So we generally follow the rule of "less is more" - keep it simple, keep it clean. Our clients on the other hand... they tend to not share the same ideas when they first come in. I just sent out a logo design to a particularly... fastidious client who requested a great deal of complication that I simplified by about 98% (out of an hour long conversation, I used one design detail that he mentioned...) I'm anxiously waiting for the "that's not what I wanted" reply before I have to put time into showing him WHY all the complication would be a terrible idea.

How do you guys handle clients that have their hearts set on bad ideas?

 

[Billct2]

It depends, I'm not usually designing a logo, more often a "sign design" that sometimes get turned into a logo. If you read any of Dan Antonellis books it has a lot to do with how you are presenting yourself to the client. He turned himself into a branding company as opposed to a sign shop that designs logos. So his clients tend to accede to his expertise. Me, I will show the client what I think will work, and if they "ruin" it I grin and take their check.

 

[mmblarg]

It depends, I'm not usually designing a logo, more often a "sign design" that sometimes get turned into a logo. If you read any of Dan Antonellis books it has a lot to do with how you are presenting yourself to the client. He turned himself into a branding company as opposed to a sign shop that designs logos. So his clients tend to accede to his expertise. Me, I will show the client what I think will work, and if they "ruin" it I grin and take their check.

Haha! You're just like us! If a customer design is easy enough, we'll usually create it along side "our recommendation" (clients will usually choose the later.) We are 90% sign and design though, so logos and branding are a bit outside of our scope. We still create quality work based on simple principles of design, but we're not a marketing company. Best I can do is explain why we've made a recommendation or changed an initial idea with how it pertains to readability, cost, and usability with various printing methods.

 

[visual800]

thanks to computers they can design crap themselves and the are loving it! I ususally do a side by side and in past its been 95% sucessful.......lately Im running 25% sucess, it has been rabid here.

I was just battling an eye doctor that laid her cards out on vistaprint and would NOT take my suggestion. she also designed her own logo it is terrible. These folks think their stuff looks good and everyone round them that are coworkers and friends are going to agree......I certainly dont mind sharing my thoughts to them if they ask.
Sometimes it so bad I dont wanna do the signs

 

[Johnny Best]

I am sure when someone said they were going to call their new company "google" the person on the other end thought it was a bad idea. You have to be like an explorer and go to new ideas and take chances with your designs and thoughts. Sometimes they work and the customer is happy and other times no. You said you simplified their ideas which to me is the hardest thing to do so you seem to be on the right track with selling your designs and hopefully the customer will agree with you. I think everyone on this site would like to no the holy grail of selling your concepts to the customer without them throwing something bad into it. Tell us how it came out with the customer and remember it for your next quest of selling your ideas.

 

[signbrad]

This is a good question.

The days are gone when the artist/designer was so highly respected that he or she was usually deferred to. I knew sign makers who regularly turned down jobs rather than work with poor design brought to them by a client. They did not like their design authority questioned; their artist ego was offended. But I believe now that at least a few of these prima donnas were unintentionally admitting to limited abilities. I should know. I was one of them.
Any good designer can turn out respectable design work when starting from scratch. But to be handed a piece of 'nephew art' and asked to use it can be a far greater challenge. It tests your ability as both a designer and as a salesman. If you can use a client's design, tweak it into something decent and allow them to boast that they designed it themselves you can end up with a loyal customer that is willing to pay your price and will send you clients because they view you as easy to work with. (see SignCraft May/June 2002, Coping with Nephew Art).

It's true more than ever these days that everyone is a 'designer.' Access to computers and design software is within everyone's reach. And they all think they can do it. It doesn't help that many sign shops turn out poor design that is no better than what the amateurs do. So selling good design is harder now than ever before.

Is there a perfect solution? I don't think so.
I do what many of you do. I present options. I show them what I want to do alongside what they want, or a version of what they want. I ask questions. And I explain what I am doing and why. I compliment them whenever possible (I don't lie to them). I don't use a lot of silly-sounding artist jargon. I don't mind allowing a client to sit down beside me as I work through a layout. I even invite their input, especially in areas on which I do not place the highest priority. Color choice, for example. I like to think I can make most color preferences work. And color is an area that customers hold dear.

It can take great effort to put one's ego on the shelf. Creatives like us don't do it easily or well. It helps to remember that no sign design will be perfect in every case. And the real goal in dealing with any customer is to get the money out of their pocket and into ours. And, of course, we want to have fun, too.

Brad in Kansas City

 

[Pete Moss]

"Fastidious", there is a ten dollar word.

I usually speak in design principals to the client. It shows you know why a design will or will not work. "This logo works because of scale, continuity and movement, using an analogous color scheme." Pointing out where these elements are used. I also let them know why I chose the particular elements and how they relate to their brand. It shows the thought put into a design. If they want 10 million things jammed in, I tell them why it will not work, again, using design language. "Given that we have a goat, a pair of hair clippers, and a chocolate bar using a photo, an illustration, and a painting there will be no unity or continuity.

 

[mmblarg]

"Fastidious", there is a ten dollar word.

I usually speak in design principals to the client. It shows you know why a design will or will not work. "This logo works because of scale, continuity and movement, using an analogous color scheme." Pointing out where these elements are used. I also let them know why I chose the particular elements and how they relate to their brand. It shows the thought put into a design. If they want 10 million things jammed in, I tell them why it will not work, again, using design language. "Given that we have a goat, a pair of hair clippers, and a chocolate bar using a photo, an illustration, and a painting there will be no unity or continuity.

Haha! It was either use "fastidious" or use "particular" twice in one sentence - I seriously pondered that sentence structure for a while

This is probably a big faux pas on my part, but personally, I've never really put much effort into articulating design concepts for two reasons: one, I learned my trade through hands-on training so design-focused vocabulary never took priority. Two, we are a basic sign company - you wont see us designing ads for Time Magazine or installing Vegas-worthy 50ft displays. The majority of our business are mom-and-pop shops that are more likely to become alienated by design jargon than impressed by it.

 

[Gino]

Haha! It was either use "fastidious" or use "particular" twice in one sentence - I seriously pondered that sentence structure for a while

This is probably a big faux pas on my part, but personally, I've never really put much effort into articulating design concepts for two reasons: one, I learned my trade through hands-on training so design-focused vocabulary never took priority. Two, we are a basic sign company - you wont see us designing ads for Time Magazine or installing Vegas-worthy 50ft displays. The majority of our business are mom-and-pop shops that are more likely to become alienated by design jargon than impressed by it.

I don't think you actually hafta dazzle them with big words or double talk from someone's book. I'd rather sell them on me or my company's abilities and show them samples of what we've done over the decades. A quick look at a cross section of our past projects.... and they usually say, wow, you did their work and those guys work...... well, if you're good enough for them, you're good enough for us.

That being said, I presently have a customer who is being a real PITA for some reason. I actually have the complete opposite problem. They want nothing but two words on logo. However, they won't offer any assistance. Their approach has been, you're the professional, hit some buttons and show us your creativity. In cahoots with a fellow member [well known for logos and creativity] here, I've now offered up about 20 different possibilities. They pooh-pooh them all and give no reasons why or why not they like or dislike something. Just, 'NO' with an X through the drawings. Whether or not this means anything, the actual owners of the complex are from India, but I'm dealing with some local go-betweens.

There's always one in every crowd. ​

 

[mmblarg]

I don't think you actually hafta dazzle them with big words or double talk from someone's book. I'd rather sell them on me or my company's abilities and show them samples of what we've done over the decades. A quick look at a cross section of our past projects.... and they usually say, wow, you did their work and those guys work...... well, if you're good enough for them, you're good enough for us.

That being said, I presently have a customer who is being a real PITA for some reason. I actually have the complete opposite problem. They want nothing but two words on logo. However, they won't offer any assistance. Their approach has been, you're the professional, hit some buttons and show us your creativity. In cahoots with a fellow member [well known for logos and creativity] here, I've now offered up about 20 different possibilities. They pooh-pooh them all and give no reasons why or why not they like or dislike something. Just, 'NO' with an X through the drawings. Whether or not this means anything, the actual owners of the complex are from India, but I'm dealing with some local go-betweens.

There's always one in every crowd. ​

oh god, I'm sorry. I completely sympathize! We shudder any time a client pulls the "you're the professional, just send us a bunch of mock ups for us to look over." We have a strict, one design at a time policy because we don't want to waste time or our clients' money (again, unless it takes little time to show them a side by side comparison of what they want vs what we advise.) Usually after the first or second go around, our customers have a better idea of what they want and give us more to work from... but that sounds absolutely wretched...

 

[Vinyldog]

I once had a good customer who wanted me to reproduce the dreaded, artwork of the aspiring artist spouse. It was supposed to be a Christian cross with her favorite flower in the back-ground. But unfortunately it looked very much like a cross resting on a giant vagina. Everyone I showed it to said the same thing. But I couldn't talk him out of it.

 

[Gino]

I once had a good customer who wanted me to reproduce the dreaded, artwork of the aspiring artist spouse. It was supposed to be a Christian cross with her favorite flower in the back-ground. But unfortunately it looked very much like a cross resting on a giant vagina. Everyone I showed it to said the same thing. But I couldn't talk him out of it.

May we see it, if it isn't too pornographic for this site ??

 

[rossmosh]

Depends on how you design. Let's assume you offer 3-5 concepts as part of your package and from there force the customer to narrow down from there. Of the initial concepts should be a 1-2 you think would be best and a 1-2 based on their specific parameters and 1 "compromise" design. They pick what they pick and that's it. I've learned over the years that sometimes the customer is just wrong and other times they push me to put out a very good design, potentially better than my original concept.

I also don't think clients that say "you're creative, be creative" are wrong. Logo design is too abstract for many people. Your job is to have a questionnaire & logo book. Have them answer 5-10 questions and circle their 5 favorite logos from the logo book. It should give you some direction without having them specifically telling you what they want.

 

[oksigns]

You have to set the tone and pace of the engagement.

There will be two camps a customer falls in to. The "I have my own ideas" customer that has expectations to have what is in their mind materialize with little to no compromise and the "I have an idea- help me" customer that is, at the very least, fairly receptive to new ideas outside of initial forethought but recognizes and appreciates(on some level) the expertise of a well crafted identity or logo.

Ultimately, you take on new customers based on what you are willing to work with. Is it a McDonald's "Your Way" type of job or is it a truly collaborative and fulfilling approach for both you and the customer.

So, for myself and I how conduct business as I am a graphic designer first, is that the customer chose me not just because I own the software and can click buttons, but it's the skill set and experience used to produce quality content.

 

[Pete Moss]

I understand that type of client and have had my fair share of them. The point of using design terminology is to show them you know what you are talking about. I am not talking over their heads, just explaining to them why something will or will not work. It is the reason these principals exist.
Maybe it is the evolution of my deigns, but I have not had to do this in a long time. It seems like the longer I have been at this the easier it has become for the client to just go with what I present. Once in a while and it seems to happen when I love something I've done, the client chooses not to listen, more than likely due to their own personal control issues, or lack there of. I wouldn't assume your clients would likely become alienated by big words. My clients, at least, are usually intelligent business owners who understand the importance for going to an expert.

 

[mmblarg]

Tell us how it came out with the customer and remember it for your next quest of selling your ideas.

Update time! Four days later, got my answer in the form of an email that only contained a picture - literally that was it... After a couple inquisitive emails and a quick call, my client tells me they also had another designer working on the logo as well... don't know how to feel about that really... though, partly relieved since the other designer put in the hours of back and forth before tweaking the design I had sent which is what came back to me to be refined further...

 

[Vinyldog]

No. He kept saying he was going to tell everyone where he got it, I kept saying, oh that's okay. Don't go to any trouble. Please.

 

[mmblarg]

No. He kept saying he was going to tell everyone where he got it, I kept saying, oh that's okay. Don't go to any trouble. Please.

Have to admit, that gave me a good laugh - not the smirk and laugh in your head kind, full blown laugh out loud for all the office to wonder what the hell.

Whenever we are requested to create something we find less than appealing, we conveniently "forget" to put our contact info sticker on the back...

 

[equippaint]

I personally don't like simple logos or websites, its kind of a fad right now but to each their own. Designers seem to love them but I think theyre in a bubble.

 

[Marlene]

customer input isn't a bad thing as it they know their business and that helps. what doesn't help is when they have an "artist" cousin or a kid that is a computer "whiz". when I get nephew art, I take what they provide and re-work it. what usually sells it is telling them that you like their idea and put a professional's eye to it. they come to you because you are a pro so it doesn't sound like you are full of yourself to say that. some stuff they bring in with a lot of help can work. using the word work helps too. it explains the why behind what you've done. some of what they bring in is so bad, there is nothing that can be done with it. I do my best at that point to tell them why they shouldn't go that direction. had a customer bring in a design they did for a pet place with green tails on the cat and dog. nothing in the name or tagline explained the tails. she just liked green tails. some times we get these kinds of customers and there isn't much that can be done