How do you hire?

[Texas_Signmaker]

I hope to keep this respectful of your opinion, with which I totally disagree. The problem with someone paying $80K on a four year degree is they likely got ripped off by a bloated, ineffective educational bureaucracy and terrible judgement on their part. Why should a business be responsible for that? $20/hr. might work in New Jersey, but would kill jobs and raise prices here big time. That's why a national minimum wage is a bad idea.

$7.50 anywhere in the USA is a bad idea.. Minimum should be $15 in "cheap states". Higher elsewhere

 

[Notarealsignguy]

$7.50 anywhere in the USA is a bad idea.. Minimum should be $15 in "cheap states". Higher elsewhere

I agree in theory but don't really trust the motive behind it. Conspiracy thinking here, who is pushing for a national minimum wage of 15/hr? You don't fight city hall with hopes and dreams, it takes cash. Large companies stand to gain from this and run off a lot of the small guys, like us, that struggle to compete. I think it's the proverbial wolf in sheep's clothing here.
In the trucking industry they had a similar scenario. They pushed for stricter hours of service laws and speed limiters. It killed the owner operators but the big corps running team drivers benefited. They hire warm bodies that are willing to live in a truck with a stranger and swap driving where the independents will not do that. That is exactly what they wanted. You cant make money in that business without putting in hours and moving. Its all based on $ per mile but these laws forced the trucks to sit idle for an excess amount of time and it was sold to the public as safety.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

You want a solid pool of decent workers? Pay no less than $20/hr. Nationwide minimum wage of $15/hr is a round the corner and it's already implemented or in the process of being implemented within the next few years in a lot of states.

The simple reality is: A lot of small businesses can't afford to pay a good, living wage. Asking someone that just spent $80k on a 4 year degree, with $60k in student loans, to get paid $15/hr, while you can make $14.50/hr working unskilled labor is a recipe for trouble.

To be clear, I also don't blame small businesses for wanting to keep wages down / not being able to afford "competitive" wages. Between competition from other competitors, online competition, and the big companies constantly squeezing for cheaper and faster, what can you really do?

If you spend 80k on college by borrowing it all, you are an idiot. That is nobody else's fault and nobody owes you a thing. Just like everything in life, you have to work for it.

 

[signage]

these minimum wages are killing this country, how can we make something with these wages/expenses and then sell them to other country that only pay $20 a day? So if minimum wage go up only ones that can afford the goods are Americans so everything will go up and no-one gets ahead.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

these minimum wages are killing this country, how can we make something with these wages/expenses and then sell them to other country that only pay $20 a day? So if minimum wage go up only ones that can afford the goods are Americans so everything will go up and no-one gets ahead.

$7.50 an hour is called wage slavery. Food stamps and social welfare support those making such little money, meaning our government subsidies your company paying such a low wage.

I'm sure "we're" already paying over $15 an hour....but half of that comes from government benefits. How much time and productivity would be saved if low wage workers got their "full check" and didn't have to waste time applying for and managing government benifits?

 

[WYLDGFI]

Within the past year and half, I had to hire 1/3 of my staff...so 2 of 6 total people if you include myself in the 6. It wasn't easy. The toxic one...he was fired/quit...however it is spun I really don't care. Another employee whom I valued at the time, needed to change hours...work part time due to a baby being born and I was willing to accommodate as I should. That dragged out beyond an acceptable period of time and was forced to make a decision there as well.

I started with indeed and was able to find a couple reasonable printer operators who showed some skill and aptitude for the business. One young woman...a millennial... I asked her to come back for a couple hours for a 2nd interview/tryout on the press. She never showed up. Another guy came back and was able to feed sheets and repeat....that was it. Not able to think on his feet or even handle boards well pre and post printing. The guy whom I have now running my press is awesome. Able to run the press, laminate & router and the kind of guy you want in your shop all the time and forever. Again, from indeed.
He mentioned his buddy.....as I needed 2 employees at the time....& I was a bit hesitant. I interviewed him and brought him in on a test basis. Can laminate and run the router....just the person I needed to fill the final slot. Able to think on his feet and follows directions well.

I got lucky. I will admit that for sure. The other people I have here at the shop have been here for years. I feel like I really take care of my employees...pay and sick/personal leave is never an issue. Im flexible and understanding but not a pushover. They work hard and efficiently. Minimal errors are made and we all click quite well. Even with Covid last year, I gave them raises as they deserved them fully.
As the owner/operator here, I actually enjoy coming into work and love doing what I do. My crew makes the company better and it shows in our work.

 

[Reveal1]

For a while now, there has been a growing expectation of the federal government to solve all of our problems. I'm not taking issue with the idea of a minimum wage, just the idea that the federal government be the one to establish it.

Having a respectful argument (does that happen any more?) about the actual amount is good and healthy. Like any problem, best to agree at the start what the objectives are. For example, is a minimum wage really about establishing a salary at which everyone can support a family? Those that propose that seem to be saying it is, and case closed. I would argue that the minimum is to establish a floor for those entering the work force, primarily part time, where they cut their teeth and can rise up the ladder through their own efforts. Where I live there is a 8.15 minimum; no one pays it because the market has determined that it takes 10-11 minimum to get decent entry level PT unskilled, and $14-15 for entry level first job/low skill.

Regarding the argument we pay it one way or the other through welfare; for the moment at least, even with the Pandemic, in many industries there are more jobs than competent workers willing to work. Once the pandemic subsides we'll be back to the pre-pandemic labor shortage assuming the government doesn't screw things up. What logic says that many of those already on welfare are going to work, or be skilled enough to succeed even at $15? I hope they end up working for my competition and not me. The welfare culture, failing education, and idea that we owe those who make habitually bad choices a living (or school loans for that matter) are the real problems. Once we experience the job loss from wage inflation, there will be even more on welfare. And to top it off, we're opening borders to bring even more unskilled workers in.

 

[Jeremiah]

About 60 days ago , I hired a former competitor that sold me his business. He asked if I needed help for a few months. I said sure. Naturally i checked the finished jobs before they were going out the door. 3/4 had mistakes (spelling etc)or just needed a. Little final touch. His simple design work was more carnival than classy. He came back the next morning for a days pay and said I was too demanding... I decided that I would rather work longer hours during back up times rather than spend my time worrying about putting out a professional product. We will stay a 2 person shop
I am lucky... the other person is my wife. , she does customer service mostly and billing, some shop work. We produce a reasonable volume if work. I will not waste time again hiring a helper. We get walk in applicants every other day.

 

[Michael-Nola]

The trick is to filter out the 90% of people that have generally bad work ethic, then targeting for whether you want a relatively "green" employee or someone seasoned with broad experience.
Easy right???
But really, the only working solution I ever had was to handle all interviews and hiring myself, with a documented and constantly improving interview methodology.
I would also second for the ideology of a minimal crew on the higher side of pay or profit sharing, with the highest level of expectations along with it. 5 mediocre "production staffers" is next to worthless compared to 1 complete production monster making 3/5's of their wages.
All easier said than done, but that's just my strategy going in.

 

[MJ-507]

You want a solid pool of decent workers? Pay no less than $20/hr. Nationwide minimum wage of $15/hr is a round the corner and it's already implemented or in the process of being implemented within the next few years in a lot of states.

The simple reality is: A lot of small businesses can't afford to pay a good, living wage. Asking someone that just spent $80k on a 4 year degree, with $60k in student loans, to get paid $15/hr, while you can make $14.50/hr working unskilled labor is a recipe for trouble.

To be clear, I also don't blame small businesses for wanting to keep wages down / not being able to afford "competitive" wages. Between competition from other competitors, online competition, and the big companies constantly squeezing for cheaper and faster, what can you really do?

So, if you start paying new hires $20/hour, what do you do for your existing employees who are either making less than that or have put in the years to earn whatever pay they make? I make ±$25/hour after 25 years in the industry & 10 years at my company & I believe our new un-trained helpers make ±$10-12. If my boss were to suddenly start offering the new "trainees" $20, I would expect to get a $8-10/hour raise. It's a bit ridiculous to expect seasoned employees who've put the time in to earn the higher wages to suddenly make not much more than people who don't know sh!t from Shinola because an employer (& the Feds who are clueless about how small businesses scratch out a living) unilaterally decides to pay an un-trained, un-skilled, un-educated (in the sign industry) new grunt about twice what they should be making.

Not to mention, I think a "living wage" needs to be explored further. I am not going to generalize too much (I hope) but how many people who claim they are not receiving a "living wage" have newest model cellphones, new sports car, expensive sneakers, every cable channel known to man, high-end video game consoles, etc., etc. etc. When I was younger & lacked marketable skills & made $6/hour, I didn't have a telephone, I had basic cable, I drove a beat up Datsun 210, I bought my clothes at Goodwill, etc. so I could "live on my wages". The thought of protesting to force my employers to pay me a higher wage per hour never even crossed my mind. When I felt I wasn't being financially treated as well as I wanted, I would seek out a new position that did pay me the money I felt was adequate. I don't think that asking a college grad to work for $15/hour is the same as forcing them to work for that dollar figure but, turn it around, and you are saying the business owner should be forced to pay that college grad $20/hour when all they have to offer is $15. The college grad can choose to turn down the $15 offer and find a different position but the business owner has no choice to offer less than $20/hour and they won't be allowed to find someone who is willing to work for less. So, when the business owner can't afford to pay ridiculous wages that the government will be forcing them to, and the skilled employees want raises to match their skill level above new unskilled employees now receiving government-mandated $15 (or $20) per hour, the owner will really have only 2 options: employee fewer people or close the business. I don't see how this benefits the economy, the employees or the business owner.

Disclaimer: If this sounds directed at you personally, it's not intentional and my apologies if it comes across that way. I know you didn't say living wages are the way to go nor are you propagandizing them. I just get heated about this topic because I think it's going to kill the world of small businesses in this country.

 

[rossmosh]

To Clarify My Point Simply:

People will have about $1000/mo in rent, $500/mo for food, $500/mo utilities/phone/internet, $500 car/insurance, $500/mo health insurance, $300/mo debt services, $300/mo other expenses. That's $3600 or $22.5/hr NET pay. Now some of these numbers might be considered high, but they're pretty close to accurate overall. Even if it dropped to $3000/mo, we're at $18.75 NET. So that's where I come up with $20/hr+. It covers a place to live, food on the table, a decent car/insurance, health insurance, paying off past debts/funding retirement/savings, and some other expenses.

The math is simple. $20/hr is a true living wage and that's why people want/expect it from a full time gig, especially for skilled labor.

Now I completely understand why people will balk at these numbers. I feel the small business squeeze just like everyone else. I can't follow these rules. I hired a college educated about 18 months ago at below $15/hr because that's what I could afford. My point is simply that if you want to find a good employee, who has a good head on their shoulders, and doesn't come with a ton of baggage, $20/hr is that magical number at the moment.

 

[unclebun]

You want a solid pool of decent workers? Pay no less than $20/hr. Nationwide minimum wage of $15/hr is a round the corner and it's already implemented or in the process of being implemented within the next few years in a lot of states.

The simple reality is: A lot of small businesses can't afford to pay a good, living wage. Asking someone that just spent $80k on a 4 year degree, with $60k in student loans, to get paid $15/hr, while you can make $14.50/hr working unskilled labor is a recipe for trouble.

To be clear, I also don't blame small businesses for wanting to keep wages down / not being able to afford "competitive" wages. Between competition from other competitors, online competition, and the big companies constantly squeezing for cheaper and faster, what can you really do?

Charging exorbitant college tuition rates for someone who will end up employed in a sign shop is the problem. Sign shops were not built on college graduates. And the pricing structure was not predicated on paying new hires $40,000 a year. Like much of the working world, things have been upended by the rape of the college student built upon the move of student loans to the federal government. To pay those kind of wages to new hires would require a tripling of some sign prices in a rural/small town area like ours. That's impossible when you are competing against internet disruptors who severely undercharge.

 

[unclebun]

To Clarify My Point Simply:

People will have about $1000/mo in rent, $500/mo for food, $500/mo utilities/phone/internet, $500 car/insurance, $500/mo health insurance, $300/mo debt services, $300/mo other expenses. That's $3600 or $22.5/hr NET pay. Now some of these numbers might be considered high, but they're pretty close to accurate overall. Even if it dropped to $3000/mo, we're at $18.75 NET. So that's where I come up with $20/hr+. It covers a place to live, food on the table, a decent car/insurance, health insurance, paying off past debts/funding retirement/savings, and some other expenses.

The math is simple. $20/hr is a true living wage and that's why people want/expect it from a full time gig, especially for skilled labor.

Now I completely understand why people will balk at these numbers. I feel the small business squeeze just like everyone else. I can't follow these rules. I hired a college educated about 18 months ago at below $15/hr because that's what I could afford. My point is simply that if you want to find a good employee, who has a good head on their shoulders, and doesn't come with a ton of baggage, $20/hr is that magical number at the moment.

If all that is true, how have I managed to live for the last 30 years on far less, while still buying a house, having vehicles to drive, etc.?

 

[The Big Squeegee]

I believe that employees will generally be worth what you pay them. If you pay low wages they will usually be depressed and always looking for a better paying job.
I have hired from the local prison. I pay them minimum wage until they are released from prison. Those that do a good job for me will get a raise. Those that don't show an interest in the work will not get a raise and will no doubt find another job. Most jobs that hire excons will only pay $10/hr to start so many of them go back to the behaviors that got them reincarcerated in the first place.
Of course, my business model does not include working with the general public, since I'm engaged in manufacturing. Not everyone can do this and I felt that it was a good public service that not very many businesses could do.
A minimum wage of $15/hr may kill the hiring of excons in the final days of their incrassation.

 

[rossmosh]

If all that is true, how have I managed to live for the last 30 years on far less, while still buying a house, having vehicles to drive, etc.?

By the sound of it, you're not arguing against my numbers or the logic behind them. You're arguing that you were able to do something in the past, so why can't people do the same thing now? The answer is: Times have changed.

Dispute the numbers. How much do you realistically think it costs to live a month while having everything you need and a little bit extra? Is our goal as a society literally just to pay people just enough to survive?

 

[markdarian]

I wouldn't go with a recruiter. You'll still get minimum wage-type applicants, but at a premium because the recruiting firm will have to take a cut of the paycheck. On top of that, unless you're working with a specialized recruiting firm that knows about the sign industry, they have no idea what to screen for. Your best bet (outside of trusted referrals) is still Indeed/Linkedin or any of the major job boards.

But even then, it's been extremely difficult to find quality employees. We pay way over minimum wage and I'd estimate maybe 50-60% of interviewees don't even show up to the interviews. They don't call to cancel, no heads up, nothing. Another issue is that a lot of "unemployed" people end up taking jobs just to get a couple months of verifiable work experience so they can leave and re-file for unemployment.

We were recently hiring for a part-time social media position. We tailored the job specifically for college students. It would be 90% remote. They'd come in once a week for 1-2 hours to take product pictures (using our camera and studio), and then edit/post the pictures on our social media at their convenience from home. All the college kids who we interviewed demanded at least $30-40/hr, full benefits, etc. One of them even wanted a full-time yearly salary. We ended up just doing it in-house instead.

 

[signage]

Raising minimum wages will force small business to pay under the table to stay in business. Think about are you going to earn less money to run your business? I sure as hell won't so that will cause me to charge more and less business will have more money to spend. All the government want to do is control every one. $15.00 will account for approximately $22 /hr for the employer! so less business means less employment which means less product being made in the USA so we will be buying more China junk!

 

[Reveal1]

By the sound of it, you're not arguing against my numbers or the logic behind them. You're arguing that you were able to do something in the past, so why can't people do the same thing now? The answer is: Times have changed.

Dispute the numbers. How much do you realistically think it costs to live a month while having everything you need and a little bit extra? Is our goal as a society literally just to pay people just enough to survive?

Good question. We're not even starting from the same place which is yet another indicator of the vast divide we have going on. My answer to your question is a firm 'No', not the governments role to provide 'everything you need and a little bit extra' or even paying healthy, unwilling to work people enough to survive. My goal would be to provide an environment where everyone has the opportunity to succeed based on their willingness to earn it. That means schools that focus on providing work skills instead of social engineering, businesses free from job killing regulation (like national minimum wage or reducing our energy independence), and a productive growing economy free from big government bureaucrats or monopolistic oligarchs that want to force their view of what's good for us.

 

[rossmosh]

Good question. We're not even starting from the same place which is yet another indicator of the vast divide we have going on. My answer to your question is a firm 'No', not the governments role to provide 'everything you need and a little bit extra' or even paying healthy, unwilling to work people enough to survive. My goal would be to provide an environment where everyone has the opportunity to succeed based on their willingness to earn it. That means schools that focus on providing work skills instead of social engineering, businesses free from job killing regulation (like national minimum wage or reducing our energy independence), and a productive growing economy free from big government bureaucrats or monopolistic oligarchs that want to force their view of what's good for us.

Guy comes in, works 40 hours a week for you, doing a full time job. He's reliable. He's efficient. He's good at his job. Shouldn't he make enough to have a place to live, food to eat, a car to drive, utilities covered, and some left over to go on a vacation/save for retirement/go out and enjoy life? If you run the numbers, that requires about $20/hr on average.

So I get your argument. I've already admitted I couldn't pay the person I hired part time as a helper/assembler $15+/hr. I also agree that increasing minimum wage is going to have ramifications, many of them negative. That's not my argument here.

My argument is simple. You want a good employee? Someone with something between their two ears? Well, simple math tells me that you can't get that for much under $20/hr. Because less than $20/hr, you can't afford to pay for the basics and have a bit left over at the end of the month.

If you want to talk about how and why federal minimum wage may or may not be a good idea and how small businesses are getting squeezed out of the market place, I think starting another thread would be appropriate. My argument is discussing how you hire a good employee. The answer is simple: You want someone that can do basic math and knows basic personal finance, they're going to want $20/hr or more.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

To Clarify My Point Simply:

People will have about $1000/mo in rent, $500/mo for food, $500/mo utilities/phone/internet, $500 car/insurance, $500/mo health insurance, $300/mo debt services, $300/mo other expenses. That's $3600 or $22.5/hr NET pay. Now some of these numbers might be considered high, but they're pretty close to accurate overall. Even if it dropped to $3000/mo, we're at $18.75 NET. So that's where I come up with $20/hr+. It covers a place to live, food on the table, a decent car/insurance, health insurance, paying off past debts/funding retirement/savings, and some other expenses.

The math is simple. $20/hr is a true living wage and that's why people want/expect it from a full time gig, especially for skilled labor.

Now I completely understand why people will balk at these numbers. I feel the small business squeeze just like everyone else. I can't follow these rules. I hired a college educated about 18 months ago at below $15/hr because that's what I could afford. My point is simply that if you want to find a good employee, who has a good head on their shoulders, and doesn't come with a ton of baggage, $20/hr is that magical number at the moment.

You're 100% right on this. My brother in law makes about $23/hr. working at a factory. They have a tiny house in a older neighborhood, two older (paid off) cars and two kids. The wife works part time as a waitress. They "live" on that wage and can keep a stable house and pay bills with a little spending $$ but not much beyond that. To me that is basic living... any lower and they would have to go on food stamps or have trouble paying bills. $15 doesn't cover that... I bet no one here who is crying about paying some $15 could actually live on it.