How do you keep consistent colours on roll to roll printer? (Epson SC80600)

[White Haus]

ColorCheck isn´t a tool to match pantone colors, it is a tool to check color consistency. Pantone colors are difficult to match because they are originally solid colors mixed out of 18 base colors, to reach colors not reproducable on 4C offset printing machines. There are swatches available named Pantone Bridge, to check which 4C-color is the nearest to a given Pantone color.

You will get as near as possible to pantone colors if you create precise output profiles in Onyx for every media you use.

I know based on the Gamut checker in Onyx, we're hitting around 93% of Coated PMS colors on our 4 color S60600 with custom profiles. I would imagine running a S60800 would open that up a bit further into the high 90's.

 

[MelloImagingTechnologies]

General color shifts is something I have never heard of on an EPSON.
I have wrap customers with an EPSON who have to reprint a wrap section because of an accident a year later and they match perfectly.
If it’s changing during printing, print small color bars next to print to keep all colors firing and run higher passes.
If it’s still a problem, run a nozzle print after every tile to see what’s dropping.
Bruce

 

[greysquirrel]

This is the direction we were looking at going, but I can't find any information on this system. I've also been waiting to hear a reply X-rite for more information on the process for a couple weeks now also.

you can purchase an eye1 through onyx...they will help you use it over the phone

 

[Terrance the Deuce]

I'm printing on an Epson SureColor SC80600, and there are times where I have to re-print a section, or a patch for something I would have printed months prior. Sometimes the colours match, and other times, the colours are off. I keep everything the same, media, printer settings, same files, etc... I've worked at a print shop where I would calibrate the digital laser printer to reset the colours to match the baseline curves as my only experience with keeping colours consistent in the printed product.

Any recommendations on how you would maintain consistent colours over a long period of time, or any recommendations on how to calibrate the colours back to a baseline setting? Some research has pointed to the X-rite Eye-1 device that would work with our Onyx RIP system, but I don't know anyone with any hands on experience with this.

Get the I1. Create your own profiles in Onyx with ink restrictions/linearization. Recalibrate the restrictions and run Onyx color checks regularly (at least once a month, once a week better, before any large job). Onyx's youtube channel actually has a lot of great videos that will walk you through all of this stuff. It's def worth checking out if you are new-ish to color management.

 

[FrankenSigns.biz]

I'm printing on an Epson SureColor SC80600, and there are times where I have to re-print a section, or a patch for something I would have printed months prior. Sometimes the colours match, and other times, the colours are off. I keep everything the same, media, printer settings, same files, etc... I've worked at a print shop where I would calibrate the digital laser printer to reset the colours to match the baseline curves as my only experience with keeping colours consistent in the printed product.

Any recommendations on how you would maintain consistent colours over a long period of time, or any recommendations on how to calibrate the colours back to a baseline setting? Some research has pointed to the X-rite Eye-1 device that would work with our Onyx RIP system, but I don't know anyone with any hands on experience with this.

We have 3 of this same machine. We were having issues similar to this but it seems to have cleared up. Before running a job, run a head maintenance, run a self alignment and shake your cartridges at least once a day.

 

[JayVal]

General color shifts is something I have never heard of on an EPSON.
I have wrap customers with an EPSON who have to reprint a wrap section because of an accident a year later and they match perfectly.
If it’s changing during printing, print small color bars next to print to keep all colors firing and run higher passes.
If it’s still a problem, run a nozzle print after every tile to see what’s dropping.
Bruce

we've reprinted sections we've printed months and years in the past without issue. Then one day, we replaced the the original dying print head and started noticing the shifting in colours. We've had a few print head changes since and the issue persists. no nozzles missing, the colours are consistent and show zero signs of shifting during a print. But as is now, we can't even feel comfortable re-printing matching colours from a month ago.

 

[JayVal]

you can purchase an eye1 through onyx...they will help you use it over the phone

maybe this is a better option. We've reached out to X-Rite again and still haven't heard anything back from them since their initial e-mail response to us a month ago.

 

[Terrance the Deuce]

we've reprinted sections we've printed months and years in the past without issue. Then one day, we replaced the the original dying print head and started noticing the shifting in colours. We've had a few print head changes since and the issue persists. no nozzles missing, the colours are consistent and show zero signs of shifting during a print. But as is now, we can't even feel comfortable re-printing matching colours from a month ago.

The only way to solve this is with basic output color management via a calibration device (usually I1) and Onyx's profile system (since onyx is your rip). If you are replacing heads, you will definitely see color changes from prior to head replacement. Also, as printheads age, various factors can affect the way the nozzles fire (jet deflection), and it might not be noticeable on a nozzle check. It can start out minimal, but it does happen to every head over time. There are a multitude of factors that can affect color output in addition to that (media variation, temperature, humidity, jet loss. etc...). This is the reason color management exists. Anyone who isn't doing basic color management and isn't having color issues just hasn't been doing this long enough (imo).

 

[unmateria]

I couldnt survive without my old i1 (is like 16 years old). I have an i2 too but in 1 pass I have better results with the i1 dont know why

 

[JayVal]

some screenshots of the shifts in color.

In theis image, colours were consistance before sept 15. Come back after the weekend, and the color is now consistant with the Sept 18 prints.

This next image was taken back in March. These files were never re-RIP'd. We just release it as it is in our RIP.

 

[White Haus]

Yikes, that's a huge shift.

I actually just had something similar happen on our S60600 (2 months old) with a grey as well.
Printed hundreds of swatches to match something existing on a customer's site, got a sample approved and 1 week later that same swatch (not re-ripped or re-loaded or edited whatsoever) printed noticeably different.

We ended up having the re-match our approved swatch, compared swatches with our i1 and quickly ran the whole job while we were still hitting that same color.

There was a temperature difference in our shop of about 2 degrees celcius and maybe 5% humidity - only changes between initial sample and reprint that didn't match.

Does anyone know if these Epson printers are extremely critical when it comes to environment/climate control?

 

[unmateria]

You dont have to remake the full ICC, just the linearization is ok if it wasnt a head crash meanwhile. If u had a head crash, u should make a full bidir adjustment and if its not perfect, all the ICC again

 

[greysquirrel]

some screenshots of the shifts in color.

In theis image, colours were consistance before sept 15. Come back after the weekend, and the color is now consistant with the Sept 18 prints. View attachment 167162

This next image was taken back in March. These files were never re-RIP'd. We just release it as it is in our RIP.
View attachment 167163

so what rip are you using? to confirm, you are or are not linearizing your prints? exact same roll of material? I know Onyx pushed out a print driver update for my two s40s. Im assuming they pushed new drivers out for all. Where they updated? Where/how are you storing your sample roll that is being used for these tests?

 

[ColorK]

What about shifts in color when going through different parts of Onyx? I have 10070 surecolor and Onyx, sending the same file through the Job Editor, Layout tool, and basic open and send are all different colors. There is no consistency

 

[ONYXtechtips]

What about shifts in color when going through different parts of Onyx? I have 10070 surecolor and Onyx, sending the same file through the Job Editor, Layout tool, and basic open and send are all different colors. There is no consistency

Typically this is seen when the settings for each method are set differently. There are a number of factors that can cause this including input profile settings and rendering intents. Files opened in ONYX are always using a quickset. Quicksets are used to consistently open files for predetermined settings. For instance, you can edit the settings for "Default" which is what people typically use for opening files. If you go to Setup>Edit Quicksets, you can see the settings for default. I see many times that people will use this quickset and then open Job Editor to change color settings to fit their needs. This can lead to errors if a setting like rendering intent is not the same as a previous ripped file. The rendering intent is the pathway to get to the closest color the printer can print to the specified color in the file. Remember, the printer may not be able to print the exact color you want and Onyx tries to get to the closest mathematical equivalent. The rendering intent can dramatically alter these results as it takes different paths to get to the closest color.

 

[ColorCrest]

The rendering intent is the pathway to get to the closest color the printer can print to the specified color in the file.

I notice a trend to place far too much emphasis upon rendering intents and their affects / effects for prints, especially in the case of earlier thread posts and mentions of white point, neutrals / grays, etc.

So far as sign makers are often concerned, rendering intents are useful to wrangle bright, vivid colors at the edges of the spectrum.

One can rather easily evaluate those effects by using Photoshop's Proof Colors feature. Try wild. Open the Onyx Quality Evaluation PDF using the common U.S. Web Coated (SWOP) v2 ICC profile while cycling custom soft proofing against the rendering intents.

Then, open the same file but using an ICC profile such as the EpsonWideCMYK_Ver2 as a start to the same exercise. One should easily see the significant difference between the two different ICC profiles and very little difference, if any, among rendering intents.

The EpsonWide ICC profile (like others available from machine makers) is somewhat that of the ProPhoto RGB ICC profile which is a very wide color gamut and where rendering intent effects may be noticed. Digital cameras especially can capture colors beyond the color gamut of color printing processes which may be stressed with pictures of bright flowers and the like of anything vivid but with subtle gradations. The effects of rendering intents can sometimes become readily apparent in such photographic images or artistic creations using the extremes of vivid colors. Maybe notice the bright yellow fruit pictured in the Onyx file. Recommended for photography is the Perceptual intent which will bring the most vivid colors into the most vivid capability of the printer / ink / media combination while preserving gradations. Using the Relative intent will likely lose some or all of vivid gradations.

Most often, it's hard to notice rendering intent effects in the vast majority of files.

So, the exercise should show that rendering intents play a rather rare part in the scheme of things but the initial input ICC profile is far more important.

 

[ONYXtechtips]

I notice a trend to place far too much emphasis upon rendering intents and their affects / effects for prints, especially in the case of earlier thread posts and mentions of white point, neutrals / grays, etc.

So far as sign makers are often concerned, rendering intents are useful to wrangle bright, vivid colors at the edges of the spectrum.

One can rather easily evaluate those effects by using Photoshop's Proof Colors feature. Try wild. Open the Onyx Quality Evaluation PDF using the common U.S. Web Coated (SWOP) v2 ICC profile while cycling custom soft proofing against the rendering intents.

Then, open the same file but using an ICC profile such as the EpsonWideCMYK_Ver2 as a start to the same exercise. One should easily see the significant difference between the two different ICC profiles and very little difference, if any, among rendering intents.

The EpsonWide ICC profile (like others available from machine makers) is somewhat that of the ProPhoto RGB ICC profile which is a very wide color gamut and where rendering intent effects may be noticed. Digital cameras especially can capture colors beyond the color gamut of color printing processes which may be stressed with pictures of bright flowers and the like of anything vivid but with subtle gradations. The effects of rendering intents can sometimes become readily apparent in such photographic images or artistic creations using the extremes of vivid colors. Maybe notice the bright yellow fruit pictured in the Onyx file. Recommended for photography is the Perceptual intent which will bring the most vivid colors into the most vivid capability of the printer / ink / media combination while preserving gradations. Using the Relative intent will likely lose some or all of vivid gradations.

Most often, it's hard to notice rendering intent effects in the vast majority of files.

So, the exercise should show that rendering intents play a rather rare part in the scheme of things but the initial input ICC profile is far more important.

The ICC profile is the most important or course, as long as the print condition does not change. The situation here is the user opens the file three different ways and gets 3 different results. If rendering intents are not the same in each situation, different results will occur. Rendering intents is just one example of a setting that can be missed or altered. It could also be the input profile handling is different. One uses the embedded and the other uses the profile from Onyx and converts the file before it is color managed. Once we have confirmed that settings in all three situations are identical, we can look into other contributing factors.

 

[ColorCrest]

It could also be the input profile handling is different. One uses the embedded and the other uses the profile from Onyx and converts the file before it is color managed.

Color me puzzled. Please explain how a color management process of converting a color space is handled before color management.

 

[ONYXtechtips]

Color me puzzled. Please explain how a color management process of converting a color space is handled before color management.

When people set up files, they are working in an established color space. If using Illustrator, those color spaces are designated as either in RGB or CMYK. The default CMYK Color Space is USWebCoatedSWOP. This can be changed in the rip to use the predetermined color space set in the rip ie Gracol2013 or use the embedded profile of USWeb attached to the file and what the designer determined as the best color space to use. In my training sessions, I always ask, what color space do you work in when designing files. Most do not know the answer. This tells me they are using the default of USWebcoatedSWOP. If the quickset used to open the file in ONYX is set to use Recommended G7 Profiles, the USWebCoatedSWOP will be converted to GRACoL2013. It will also convert the default of RGB colorspace of sRGB to Adobe1998. CMYK rendering intents will be converted using Relative Colormetric with BPC and Perceptual for RGB. So a file set up in a specific colorspace determined by the designer should be used to preserve color integrity when processing through a RIP, hence the setting to use embedded profile when available. If that is unchecked, it will always be converted to the colorspace set in the rip.

 

[ONYXtechtips]

To get a better visualization of the difference between RGB and CMYK, I have created this chart to show gamut volume for each. If you set up your files in RGB using the default settings, the color space is represented as the red wireframe and has a tremendous color gamut in comparison to the blue wireframe which is USWebCoated. When designing in RGB your palette is big and looks great on your monitor - full, vibrant as shown in the color watches in the top left. Conversely, the same colors are determined in the right side under the USWeb. They are in no way the same color. The color space of your printing device is going to be much closer to USWebCoated because it is a CMYK colorspace and these are the colors you are using to replicate color. So if the settings in the RIP are different in the three areas files are being brought into the rip, the desired color may not hit what you expect.