How long to design and setup to print?

[Creative Soul]

Sometimes I feel our designers (who are dedicated professional skilled designers) are spending too much time on wrap design and setup to print. I would like to see what you guys are averaging on a full wrap for both design and setup to print. We charge by the hour for our general design services however we can usually not get that for wraps and still be competitive.

Thoughts appreciated.

Stephen​

 

[rjssigns]

Don't compete on price. Stick to your guns on price and make yourself stand out by doing stellar work and having top notch customer service. CSM is huge in today's market.

 

[Rick]

This is a trick question:

If the client supplied a nice logo, the copy and some idea of what they want and clearly communicated that, it can be done in a few hours...
If there is illustration and graphics that have to be made up, it can take days.
It can't be answered without looking at the type of work you are doing.

EDIT:

Just looked at the work you do... my answer is the same, it's kinda like, how long does it take to design a small brochure or mailer? Probably as long as a wrap.

 

[jfiscus]

A LOT of the time I personally have seen put towards setup of the wrap artwork for output (after design is agreed upon and "complete") comes down to a couple factors.

One, is how picky the owner is about "waste vinyl"; if the owner doesn't care about a bit of waste, or has that figured into his expenses/charges already, then printing more bleed into the artwork "just in case" is fine, then artwork is pretty quick to get flowing off the printer. If you care more about material expenses, then it WILL take a bit longer to make sure that any unnecessary bleed is eliminated and that panels are set up to best maximize the area of the material. This may include setup for different width rolls of materials, ganging panels, etc.

Another time-consuming part of the process is when the wrap is supposed to be set up as a "seamless" wrap. This takes a lot of time to break up the wrap in the best possible way to eliminate seams. Then, after this process is completed; you have to go back to the above "waste vinyl" issue all over again and re-ganging your panels together.

And then, there is also the part of EVERY wrap where they are all different and the artwork can vary greatly from being a solid color/pattern background to a complex background or image that wraps from one plane of the vehicle to another; for example; the sides of the vehicle up onto the hood. In most projects, designers will recognize this potential for problems and try to make those transitional areas free of difficult imagery. However, wraps now are getting increasingly more complex every time, and as designers we are constantly charged to "push the envelope" with artwork and design.

Not to mention the fact that there are constantly new vehicles being wrapped, and every new vehicle is never exactly the same as the template or whatever you are designing from once it is in front of you. This goes back to my first point of "unnecessary bleed", as sometimes you never even see the vehicle at your shop, or never until the day it is to be installed; so you have to guess based off of photos where/how to add more material/area to the print to cover the curvature of the physical vehicle.

I hope this post helps you! Also, my spell check stopped working in Chrome; so there may be misspellings.

 

[Creative Soul]

Interesting

Thanks for the comments and feedback. We do a lot of wraps (did 5 this week) and we don't give them away however it is hard competing with the 2 man shops where the guy answering the phone and selling the wrap is the one designing and installing the wrap. As a full service marketing company I have highly skilled designers I have to pay in addition to installers and printers so my cost doing a wrap can be considered much higher than the 2 person shop example. We do great work and get our share of the work however some of the guys out there are just making the install fee and ok with it since they are doing the work themselves.

 

[jfiscus]

Thanks for the comments and feedback. We do a lot of wraps (did 5 this week) and we don't give them away however it is hard competing with the 2 man shops where the guy answering the phone and selling the wrap is the one designing and installing the wrap. As a full service marketing company I have highly skilled designers I have to pay in addition to installers and printers so my cost doing a wrap can be considered much higher than the 2 person shop example. We do great work and get our share of the work however some of the guys out there are just making the install fee and ok with it since they are doing the work themselves.

That is when you have to sell them on the quality and different end product that they receive when they purchase from your shop.

 

[Gino]

If you are as successful as you say.....AND as good as you say, you shouldn't need to worry about another shop having 2 people or 20 people. You do what you need to do to keep your doors open, the others are. Why are you different ??

Again, the two man shop is keeping everything in-house, thus cutting wa-a-a-ay down on unnecessary costs, while you on the other hand have to out source the entire job.

 

[Creative Soul]

Well

If you are as successful as you say.....AND as good as you say, you shouldn't need to worry about another shop having 2 people or 20 people. You do what you need to do to keep your doors open, the others are. Why are you different ??

Again, the two man shop is keeping everything in-house, thus cutting wa-a-a-ay down on unnecessary costs, while you on the other hand have to out source the entire job.

Well....we do most of the work in-house. Just use sub contract installers. We are busy and happy just not making the money on Wraps that we make for other marketing work and services. For instance our shop rate for design is $125 - $150 an hour however if I charge that for wrap design it would be hard to sell and still make anything on the wrap after print install. Also wraps are higher risk for errors and occasional panel reprints. Again not complaining...just discussing. We get the jobs we do now because we are good and know how to sell. Still loose a fair amount of work to competition due to lower price. I know, that's life. I would rather have fewer jobs at proper margin than be slammed at real skinny margins. It' s just good hearing others thoughts.

Stephen

 

[TammieH]

And that is why it takes so long to do the graphics and set up, better to take your time and make sure everything fits, instead of reworking the art and reprinting.
You could teach yourself how to layout and design.

 

[Gino]

Thanks for the comments and feedback. We do a lot of wraps (did 5 this week) and we don't give them away however it is hard competing with the 2 man shops where the guy answering the phone and selling the wrap is the one designing and installing the wrap. As a full service marketing company I have highly skilled designers I have to pay in addition to installers and printers so my cost doing a wrap can be considered much higher than the 2 person shop example. We do great work and get our share of the work however some of the guys out there are just making the install fee and ok with it since they are doing the work themselves.

The reason I made my original comments.

Well....we do most of the work in-house. Just use sub contract installers. We are busy and happy just not making the money on Wraps that we make for other marketing work and services. For instance our shop rate for design is $125 - $150 an hour however if I charge that for wrap design it would be hard to sell and still make anything on the wrap after print install. Also wraps are higher risk for errors and occasional panel reprints. Again not complaining...just discussing. We get the jobs we do now because we are good and know how to sell. Still loose a fair amount of work to competition due to lower price. I know, that's life. I would rather have fewer jobs at proper margin than be slammed at real skinny margins. It' s just good hearing others thoughts.

Stephen

In less than an hour, you've changed some of your facts, so I'm sorry if I misread your information, but perhaps sending crossed signals is the same thing you're experiencing from your designers taking too much time, due to misunderstandings. Take for instance, if a designer is told one thing and then is told something else and then has to take the time to do it once, undo it and then re-do it again, I can understand how their time might be getting out of line, but then, whose fault is that ??

Also, I rarely design by the hour on something like this. Hourly rates are for making simple signs, layouts and just putting things together. Wraps, logos and fleet marketing are generally done in blocks of time sold in 6, 8 and 12 hour increments at so much for the block of time. No real hourly charge. Most people will decide within 6 hours, but occasionally they can take up to 8 or 10.

 

[Creative Soul]

Funny

Gino,

You are funny. No I did not change any facts but perhaps I could have worded more precisely. When I said printers I meant my employees who print the jobs, laminate and trim in my shop on my equipment with my material. I do appreciate your feedback though. Thanks!

Stephen

 

[Creative Soul]

No Way!

And that is why it takes so long to do the graphics and set up, better to take your time and make sure everything fits, instead of reworking the art and reprinting.
You could teach yourself how to layout and design.

Tammie,

The last thing I want to do is design and layout. I believe in working ON my business not IN my business. I don't sell or project manage the jobs either. I look at my job as figuring out how to grow my business...that is my unique ability.

But thanks for your comments. We don't have many reprints or errors due to design these days but sometime waste some material due to the printing or laminationprocess

Stephen

 

[Gino]

Honestly, I wasn't trying to be funny. I read your thread, statements and information, digested them and gave you answers. Whether or not you liked my answers or use the content is up to you, but I did not treat you as a joke, but evidently your poor choice in words like Addie's is something this industry is just starting to take for granted or as the norm.

Now, you dig an even deeper hole for yourself. You think because of high-end printers, lamintors and employees... your prices warrant a higher price ??

Why is that so ??

You geared this towards your designers. Why ??

• Are you using a better product ??
  [*]Are you printers more expensive ??
  [*]Are all of your people slower ??
  [*]Is your overhead outta whack ??
  [*]Do you have a lotta waste ??
  [*]Are you not up on what your people should or could be doing ?? I know you think it's the designers, but why pick on them ?? Maybe you just have a very lacks vinyl department overall.
  

 

[Creative Soul]

Too Busy

Gino,

I am way too busy making money and growing my business which is VERY profitable to waste any more time with you. Good luck.

Honestly, I wasn't trying to be funny. I read your thread, statements and information, digested them and gave you answers. Whether or not you liked my answers or use the content is up to you, but I did not treat you as a joke, but evidently your poor choice in words like Addie's is something this industry is just starting to take for granted or as the norm.

Now, you dig an even deeper hole for yourself. You think because of high-end printers, lamintors and employees... your prices warrant a higher price ??

Why is that so ??

You geared this towards your designers. Why ??

• Are you using a better product ??
  [*]Are you printers more expensive ??
  [*]Are all of your people slower ??
  [*]Is your overhead outta whack ??
  [*]Do you have a lotta waste ??
  [*]Are you not up on what your people should or could be doing ?? I know you think it's the designers, but why pick on them ?? Maybe you just have a very lacks vinyl department overall.
  

 

[Rick]

You can't compare yourself to small 2 man operations... you are a design/marketing firm. Most sign shops specializing in wraps (like 80-90%) are not all that great at design (or they are showing poop on their websites) and most throw the design in to sell the wrap. You are not a sign shop, can not compete with that, so you have to sell yourself on the better design that cost a little more. You may not have to compete with the 100+ sign shops that wrap or the 500+ design firms in the area. You are really selling yourself and your companies skills. If you are competing on or worrying about the competition's price... get out of wraps, raise your rates because they are worth it, or realize that the profit can be slim.
The options I see are...
-- Design it and send it to a competent shop to work out the final details.
-- Design the wrap and partner with a wrap shop.
-- Or become a sign shop and hire a designer specializes in wraps that has a printer and can install and make up the money on the print and install

I only design, I can't compete with sign shops either... so I don't. I'm a decent designer and my work stands out. I'm looking for clients that want better than the average sign shop.

I saw this book the other day, and ordered it, it's not about your original question, but it is about justifying your worth... might be worth a look.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0321844920/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

 

[Creative Soul]

Book Purchased

Rick,

Checked out the book and purchased on the spot. Thanks!

You can't compare yourself to small 2 man operations... you are a design/marketing firm. Most sign shops specializing in wraps (like 80-90%) are not all that great at design (or they are showing poop on their websites) and most throw the design in to sell the wrap. You are not a sign shop, can not compete with that, so you have to sell yourself on the better design that cost a little more. You may not have to compete with the 100+ sign shops that wrap or the 500+ design firms in the area. You are really selling yourself and your companies skills. If you are competing on or worrying about the competition's price... get out of wraps, raise your rates because they are worth it, or realize that the profit can be slim.
The options I see are...
-- Design it and send it to a competent shop to work out the final details.
-- Design the wrap and partner with a wrap shop.
-- Or become a sign shop and hire a designer specializes in wraps that has a printer and can install and make up the money on the print and install

I only design, I can't compete with sign shops either... so I don't. I'm a decent designer and my work stands out. I'm looking for clients that want better than the average sign shop.

I saw this book the other day, and ordered it, it's not about your original question, but it is about justifying your worth... might be worth a look.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0321844920/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

 

[Locals Find!]

Honestly, I wasn't trying to be funny. I read your thread, statements and information, digested them and gave you answers. Whether or not you liked my answers or use the content is up to you, but I did not treat you as a joke, but evidently your poor choice in words like Addie's is something this industry is just starting to take for granted or as the norm.

Now, you dig an even deeper hole for yourself. You think because of high-end printers, lamintors and employees... your prices warrant a higher price ??

Why is that so ??

You geared this towards your designers. Why ??

• Are you using a better product ??
  [*]Are you printers more expensive ??
  [*]Are all of your people slower ??
  [*]Is your overhead outta whack ??
  [*]Do you have a lotta waste ??
  [*]Are you not up on what your people should or could be doing ?? I know you think it's the designers, but why pick on them ?? Maybe you just have a very lacks vinyl department overall.
  

Why you dragging me into this mess??

 

[Gino]

Too busy my crack.................

If you were really delegating the way you should be... and say you are and making all the money you say you are, you wouldn't be here asking why your designers are milking their jobs.

I'm sure you are growing your business and making leaps and bounds over your competition, but please...... please don't try to sh!t another bullsh!tter. If you have the time to be here, you have the time for some light banter with the ol' timers.

.
​

 

[Gino]

Why you dragging me into this mess??

Cause you have a bad habit of writing nonsense and then back-pedaling to get out of it..... just like this guy. Notice the similarities ??

He says something stoopid, gets caught and then denies it with another lie........ just like you do.

Alright, two more cookies, a glass of milk and go back to sleep Addie and stay out of trouble the rest of the weekend.
​

 

[HulkSmash]

Gino,

I am way too busy making money and growing my business which is VERY profitable to waste any more time with you. Good luck.

lol. Can we see your site, and a portfolio of the work you do? Ill tell you the time it should take for design based off that.