Need Help Ice damage on new graphics - how to stop from happening again

[Aelin]

So I live in Oklahoma and we get ice storms pretty frequently, and the most recent one has ruined a fleet of newly applied tanker graphics for my customer.

I’ve attached a few photos of the damage. The ice tears film laminate off and all the vinyl off if it was liquid laminated. We are having to replace the whole fleet of graphics now, and I need to find out if there is a way to keep this from happening again?

All graphics were post heated properly and power washers were not used, so it’s just an ice problem. Has anyone else ran into issues like this?

Any ideas on preventing this?

 

[Gino]

Is the vinyl die-cut cast vinyl or printed onto air egress vinyl, laminated and then cut ?? The vinyl, ink types and laminate would be good to know.

 

[Aelin]

Is the vinyl die-cut cast vinyl or printed onto air egress vinyl, laminated and then cut ?? The vinyl, ink types and laminate would be good to know.

Two different types were used. Avery MPI 1105 cast with gloss laminate and latex ink, die-cut and die-cut 3M IJ180C with liquid laminate, eco-solvent printer.
The laminate is peeling up on the Avery and everything is peeling and cracking on the 3M.

 

[CanuckSigns]

That's the strangest thing i've seen in a while! and that's coming from someone who lives where ice storms are normal.

Your materials look good, you are using high quality films, but I'm guessing they won't help you as an ice storm would be an act of god.

how sure are you that your client is telling the truth about not using a pressure washer? also what is stored in the tanks? For the 3M 1J180 to crack is setting off warning bells, that is something you would expect to see on 10+ year old graphics!

 

[Jburns]

strange - but for that environment and those graphics - can you replace with color matched cast vinyl?

 

[Aelin]

That's the strangest thing i've seen in a while! and that's coming from someone who lives where ice storms are normal.

Your materials look good, you are using high quality films, but I'm guessing they won't help you as an ice storm would be an act of god.

how sure are you that your client is telling the truth about not using a pressure washer? also what is stored in the tanks? For the 3M 1J180 to crack is setting off warning bells, that is something you would expect to see on 10+ year old graphics!

My client has actually worked with vinyl wraps before, so they know not to pressure wash them. Also, the 3M is cracking from the top down only rather than bottom up as would likely happen if it was due to a pressure washer. Very strange.

The tankers store fuel for convenience stores in my area, but are all empty when the decals are installed and are sitting on the lot.

Oddly enough, the older graphics that have been on for 2+ years are not peeling as bad as the new ones.

 

[Aelin]

strange - but for that environment and those graphics - can you replace with color matched cast vinyl?

I wish. I probably could with the Avery decals and some other things, but the 3M is printed for a larger brand with strict color branding standards, so they have to be printed.

 

[Gino]

strange - but for that environment and those graphics - can you replace with color matched cast vinyl?

Direction I was heading, too.

Since they are peeling and cracking from the top down, it could possibly be from cleaning and fluids of some sort being spoiled ?? Not on purpose, but just happen to coincide with an ice storm or two. Also, maybe someone messed up and confused which laminate goes with which vinyl. Just looks to uniform to be from ice. Another idea, the one picture doesn't show and damage on the letters. How have other areas without the sharp corners and whatnot holding up ??

 

[signheremd]

That looks like a lamination failure. Just can't see how an ice storm lifted the edges without off gassing breaking the bond of laminate to vinyl. First thing I would ask is which laminate was used with it (gloss was mentioned, but which exact product used). Second thing I would ask is how long after printing was product laid out to off gas before lamination? Since the vinyl is sticking and from the photo I don't see gouges, seems like unless a chemical has been spilled on it that this is a lamination issue. FWIW, the specs on the vinyl are okay for the application (there are vinyls with a bit more chemical resistance). Best I can come up with with the info at hand so far. Look forward to hearing how this ends. Good luck

 

[Aelin]

That looks like a lamination failure. Just can't see how an ice storm lifted the edges without off gassing breaking the bond of laminate to vinyl. First thing I would ask is which laminate was used with it (gloss was mentioned, but which exact product used). Second thing I would ask is how long after printing was product laid out to off gas before lamination? Since the vinyl is sticking and from the photo I don't see gouges, seems like unless a chemical has been spilled on it that this is a lamination issue. FWIW, the specs on the vinyl are okay for the application (there are vinyls with a bit more chemical resistance). Best I can come up with with the info at hand so far. Look forward to hearing how this ends. Good luck

Thank you!
DOL1360Z was the laminate used on the Avery, I’m not sure what type of liquid lam was used on the 3M. The vinyl was laminated and applied right away after printing but since it is latex, I don’t know that outgassing would have been an issue.

There weren’t any chemicals on the tanker after the install, it was not washed or touched afterwards so no chemicals would have had the chance to get on it.

Unless there were somehow chemicals in the ice/snow that could have caused this? Is there such a thing as acid snow? Lol.

 

[Jester1167]

There are specific types of vinyl for stainless steel, but I'm not sure that is your problem. The vinyl made for stainless has a different adhesive that doesn't react with the stainless and is easier to remove 5 years down the road (what I have heard, do your own research.) https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company...LS-60-in-x-25-yd/?N=5002385+3289820363&rt=rud is one.

I have always thought that Avery's laminated had the weakest bond of all films. It's not a scientific thought but when I remove full wraps, the laminate often separates from the vinyl.

I also believe there is a good chance they are doing something to cause this, like banging on the side of the tankers with rubber mallets to break up the ice... It could be large sheets flying off at high speeds but I would imagine they don't want to deal with the potential lawsuits that would cause.

At a minimum, I would round all the sharp corners. Thin points have more surface area and less adhesive to resist pulling up. But, as others have suggested, I would convert the art to a cast wrapping film. It's probably in the same price range as a print, laminate, and cut scenario but thinner with less of an edge for the ice to grab onto.

If it was installed in a cold climate, the adhesive will never build maximum bond. These tankers need to be installed during a warmer time of year, stay inside for a day, or post heated well with a weed burner, torch, or heat gun.

 

[Reveal1]

You might check out this post https://signs101.com/threads/hp-latex-335-laminate-not-sticking.162096/ We've had issues with laminate sticking on latex high ink jobs, particularly in cold weather. Ours was with Arlon, so not sure it's exclusive to Avery.

 

[balstestrat]

You might check out this post https://signs101.com/threads/hp-latex-335-laminate-not-sticking.162096/ We've had issues with laminate sticking on latex high ink jobs, particularly in cold weather. Ours was with Arlon, so not sure it's exclusive to Avery.

As he's done those with both latex and solvent I doubt it on this case. Sure, a possibility with the latex but that would not explain the solvent.

I would avoid those super sharp corners, pinpoints and ends at all cost in such application.

 

[Charlie J]

I've had that same problem with Avery laminate. We ended up switching over to 3M and haven't had the problem since. In my opinion, the Avery laminate adhesive is pretty weak compared to 3M.

 

[MikePro]

My only thought regarding the liquid laminate, is that heavier coats are more susceptible to cracking...especially when applied to a curved surface or over rivots. Aside from water & solvent based being ideal for their counterparts, I don't have much more to chime-in .

I see no reason why the Avery 1360 failed, however. Both vinyl&laminate are able to withstand cold temp & resistant to salts/acids. If anything, maybe too much pressure on the laminate roll causing too much stretch during lamination?

+1 to stated above about sharp corners. I'm a HUGE fan of filet'd corners on graphics that will see any sort of environmental abrasion or passerby's with picky fingers. Even if its only a 1/32" radius, helps weed easier too as the plotter blade has a better chance to turn corners cleaner.

 

[Reveal1]

I've had that same problem with Avery laminate. We ended up switching over to 3M and haven't had the problem since. In my opinion, the Avery laminate adhesive is pretty weak compared to 3M.

Dude - that GIF is so distracting. (but did get my attention)

 

[Gino]

​

 

[Reveal1]

See random cursor on Charlie J's post

 

[Gino]

I still ain't got nothin' What am I missing ??​

 

[Reveal1]

That's interesting - you don't see the GIF with the cursor moving back and forth in the space below his post? Clever. I thought someone had hacked my system.