Idea

[dfs]

Hello, I have an idea for making signs that could turn into a business for me. I am in the process of making prototypes and I would like to know if I am on the right track and I am trying to get some idea of production costs for equipment and software.
I have no experience with sign making or printing graphics.

Idea:
Reverse print graphics on Lexan film, adhere the film to a substrate of 1/2'” thick, particle board laminated with melamine top and bottom (24”x16” board). Vinyl, double lipped, t-molding would cover the unfinished edge of the board and the edge of the film. The signs would be used mainly outdoors. I think die cutting the Lexan (after printing) would be most efficient. The ink would cover the entire area (24”x16”).

Prototypes:
I am starting with 4”x6” prototypes. I have Lexan samples, 8010, 8A13E and 8A35 (all .005”). I think I like the 8A35 best to hide scratches. I only have a ink jet printer, so the ink will not stick to the film. I need to find a local printer for my full size prototypes.
For adhesion, I tried Flobond, a 2mil dry film adhesive that is heat activated at 175-200 degrees. The Flobond sticks great to the Lexan, but it easily pulled off the melamine. I may need to try a higher temp.
I am looking into laminating adhesive film to the Lexan, then apply to the board like a big decal.

Production:
My goal is low labor, high production. I have the capabilities to build custom equipment if required.
What type of printer should I consider? Cost?
What ink types are best for Lexan?
Ink drying times?
Printing time? I would like to do 24 per day.
How do you handle removal of backer material on the Lexan?
What graphics software? Cost?
Die cutting equipment cost?
Is there automated equipment that will bond the printed Lexan film to the adhesive film (roll to roll)?
Edge trim/T-molding would be applied by hand.

Flobond vs “big decal”
The Flobond would require less labor, I would use the same die to cut. It is inexpensive (about $1.00 for 24”x16” piece), but I am not convinced it has enough adhesive power. I like the big decal if I don’t have to do it manually, although applying it to the board could be time consuming.

At this point I am excited about this possibly turning into a business, but I am sure I am missing some steps and cost. That is why I am asking for your expert opinions (even if it’s not what I want to hear). Any advice or ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Duane

 

[Pat Whatley]

Ummmm....welcome aboard.

 

[Marlene]

sooo, hello. that's a lot of questions for a first time post.

 

[BobM]

Welcome from Cape of Cod. Your questions raise lots of questions like how are these signs being used, what is the anticipated lifespan, indoors or outdoors, etc.?

 

[andy]

Particle board is what we call "Chipboard"..... the laminated version is called MFC (melamine faced chipboard).

This is the CHEAPEST timber based board you can get and it's mainly used for making CHEAP flat pack furniture. Using this material outside is a WASTE of time... it will turn into a soggy, swollen mess at the first hint of rain or humidity.

 

[weaselboogie]

Using this material outside is a WASTE of time... it will turn into a soggy, swollen mess at the first hint of rain or humidity.

+10. I've had MDF expand with just a edge sitting on the garage floor (dry) and soaking up moisture. Never use any form of particle board outdoors and that includes melamine

 

[Gino]

Welcome from PA..................................................

 

[CanuckSigns]

Why do some people assume that signs are a product that are mass produced?
what exactly are you trying to do?

 

[jscarl]

Welcome

 

[cfbeagle]

Welcome from the Deeeeeeeeeeeeep South.

Did you bring ?

 

[J Hill Designs]

welcome from cali

 

[dfs]

Thank you for all the welcomes,
I apologize for throwing everything out there at once, my intent was to explain the entire process first before asking questions.
I understand that the chipboard (MFC) should not be used outdoors. The vinyl edge trim I will use has a lip on top and bottom that should (I saw it on another application) seal out moisture. I will do my own testing to be sure. As far as life span, I am thinking ten years. I am not ready to reveal the final use of the product. Some will be used outdoors and some indoors, but I have to design for outdoors (worst case).

 

[signgal]

This is really going to be hard to advise you on without your using the correct terminology and a lot of work on our part to understand and help you.

vinyl lip? do you mean edge trim? You don't want to reveal the use because you don't want anyone to take your idea but why would any of us want to reveal the experience and knowledge we've picked up after being in this business for so long?

I just can't understand that mentality...

 

[signmeup]

It's called edge cap. It will slow the swelling process some. Not a good long term product for outdoors.

 

[Billct2]

I know the answers but I can't tell you because then I might know what you're talking about:Welcome:

 

[MachServTech]

I am thinking ten years.

Higher performance = better materials

This is solid stuff and its only rated 5 to 7 years.

http://www.laminatorsinc.com/sign-panels/products/signply


In my opinion a UV flatbed printer with the ability to print white would be the most labor free high production option. I have built several custom work flows for industrial manufacturing companies revolving around backlit lexan. Your largest problem is probably going to be combining the wood board with the lexan in these sizes. The board will breathe and change with temp and humidity this could present some major failures when married to the lexan.

I would consider a synthetic substitute.

http://www.laminatorsinc.com/sign-panels/products/econolite

or

http://www.laminatorsinc.com/sign-panels/products/omega-ep

 

[BigfishDM]

Use a polycarbonate laminate, dont reverse print onto polycarb. You will save a lot of money especially if you have to do any re-prints. You should use Polycarbonate laminate instead.

 

[Pro Image]

I think your going about this all wrong.......

As for a special SIGN DESIGN......I dont see anything your doing to be all that special.......its a 4x6 sign.....anyone of us on here can make them and from what I read alot better than what you have in mind........

So tell us what make you think you've come up with a NEW idea that you CANT REVEAL.....????

OH and i don't know of a WOOD based product that will last 10 years outdoors.....with or without trim.......

 

[Fred Weiss]

Based on what you've put forth, I would say you're approaching it in a highly inefficient fashion and trying to make inappropriate materials bend to your ideas.

As I understand it, you want to

1. reverse print on clear polycarbonate
2. laminate a heat activated adhesive to the printed polycarbonate
3. mount the print to a white clad board not intended to outdoor use
4. edge seal the board

Points to consider:

Polycarbonate, while very tough, has very poor UV characteristics and will turn straw colored in outdoor use long before your ten years has passed. Reverse printing is somewhat more difficult than first surface printing, so quality control and waste may become a factor. Printing on polycarbonate is more difficult than most other materials. Polycarbonate is subject to damage and changes when exposed to heat ... so using a heat activated adhesive may be problematic.

A better solution would probably be found in solvent or UV inkjet printing white, high performance film that is manufactured with a pressure sensitive already on it (the industry standard) and then laminate it with a clear polycarbonate or even a Tedlar film. The Tedlar is likely the only laminate that will provide anything close to ten years durability.

You can then die cut or plotter cut the resulting sandwich to fit your substrates. You will have a better product that is far less problematic to produce. And it can be mounted to your substrates using the same laminating machine you applied the laminating film with.

If there is some other reason to use a Melamine coated substrate, I would suggest that you track down a product called Abitibi board. This is sold in most home improvement stores and is a Melamine clad Masonite product used for shower enclosures. I would expect though, that if you are using a white pressure sensitive film in the first place that there is no need for the Melamine ... which opens up any number of possibilities for substrates that are far better suited for outdoor sign usage.

 

[Craig Sjoquist]

Welcome to a outstanding forum and people.

suggest you read alot in this forum 1st

 

[Just Another Sign Guy]

i have setup a high production assembly line for a mass produced sign product that sounds somewhat similar to what you are trying to explain to us.

the particular company that i am referring to printed phenolic sheeting then sandwiched it within two pieces of acrylic and then cnc routed to shape.

but without a WHOLE lot more information and clarification on what you are trying to do and what you are trying to create..there isn't much any of us can tell you to get you headed down the correct path.

there is a wealth of information here and between all of us we've seen it and done just about anything you can imagine in this industry...but if you have something that you feel is that unique you need to find someone who can lead you through the process. have them sign a non disclosure agreement and any other legal paperwork that makes you feel that your idea is protected.

but with the information and description you have provided all i can say is you need to rethink your project and the methodology of production or you need to describe it in a more understandable way because as described i see nothing buy issues.