I'm just a lowly sales guy... but...

[DerbyCitySignGuy]

What a designer has to be concerned about... (yeah yeah, I get paid money, but I made it a point to avoid designing cr@p years ago)

And my favorite... yeah, make the sale.... it's easy to design cr@p.

Aaron Draplin and Saul Bass get to have different opinions than the rest of us. Haha!

I think the most salient point that Saul Bass made was, "It's important for us not to be under the illusion that anybody else cares." Do your work, do the best job you can do, and produce the best quality you can produce. Does that mean you have to like what you're doing? Nope. But you can make that turd shine.

 

[DerbyCitySignGuy]

To a point Derby, but with that mindset, you're giving into the weakest link. Sure, everyone wants to make a buck, but why not give the best we've got for the best buck they can afford ?? If you continue with.... well, that'll do..... the next person looking at that sign might be a potential customer, until they see the quality and/or craftsmanship of your last creation. They might say to the sign holder.... who made that piece a sh!t ?? I'm never gonna go to that clod. Besides, like I said, this is not a cheap sign. It's a routed and hand painted sign. It deserves more than a.... well, that'll do. How would one build up a scrap book or website portfolio with half/a$$ed signs in it ?? You don't build a good reputation by just getting by.

However, if you disagree and wanna keep making that kinda work, be my guest. It's just more people clamoring at the good sign shop's doors.

Gino, I totally agree with you. I'm trying to keep a roof over my head though. You can't force a customer to choose an aesthetically pleasing design. You can make that sign look as good as you possibly can though.

I'm not going to do design work for free. If a customer brings me a crummy design, I'm going to (tactfully) offer to fix it for them: for the rate which we charge for design. The vast majority of the time, the customer says, "Nah, I designed this, I like the way it looks."

It's different when you're working with firms or large companies that have designers on staff, but not every sign can be a winner. Would I like to make every sign a work of art? Yes, I would. I can't have printers sitting idle and employees twiddling their thumbs between cool jobs though. So if a company wants to print 200 yard signs designed by Jim from accounting (who had a semester of design in college back in 1976), YES. I'll print those.

[Edit: To further clarify my point, not just from a design perspective, how often do customers come in and ask for a recommendation? You tell them one thing and they say, "Well, can we do it cheaper?" and you give them some suggestions. "Well, that's still too expensive, can we do it cheaper?" Cheaper, cheaper, cheaper. That's what most customers and companies care about. So that's what WE have to care about.

It's the way of the world. We live in a disposable society. I don't want to replace my washing machine every two or three years, but that's what happens, because we don't care about quality any more. I'd love to have some furniture that wasn't slapped together in some Chinese factory, but I can't afford a handmade kitchen table, so guess what? I replace my stupid kitchen table every few years.]

 

[equippaint]

If all companies subscribed to the idea that they cant make anything ugly or unappealing than there would be no brown or gold cars and the Pontiac Aztec would never have been conceived. People buy it though. I believe that buyers with bad taste drive bad design just as much as lazy designers. When the 2 types get together you better watch out.

 

[DerbyCitySignGuy]

If all companies subscribed to the idea that they cant make anything ugly or unappealing than there would be no brown or gold cars and the Pontiac Aztec would never have been conceived. People buy it though. I believe that buyers with bad taste drive bad design just as much as lazy designers. When the 2 types get together you better watch out.

Exactly. It's like skinny jeans. You may think they look stupid, but Frank over there loves them. Levi's like your money, and they like Frank's money, so they're going to do both.

We can make awesome, beautiful signs, but we can also make butt ugly signs. As long as we do it well, that's all that matters to me at the end of the day. Your butt ugly sign is going to be the highest quality butt ugly sign we can produce.

 

[Johnny Best]

This guy is not a sales guy anymore, he has moved up to the design office now. Maybe he will learn from trial and error to make nice signs or butugly signs, but he likes it and so does his customer. Maybe in the future he will do interviews on what a designer should do and not do and he will have a following of young designers.

 

[2B]

I'm gonna start placing a label on the back of signs with customer input...

THIS SIGN WAS DESIGNED BY THE CUSTOMER.

too true!
and we have done just this, usually they are overjoyed to have this on there so they can point and say, See what I did!

there have been and will continue to be designs from "professional designs" that look like total cr@p, but that is what is supplied so that is what is made
then there are the customers who know exactly what they want and no matter to amount of suggestions/proofs you offer otherwise they will only take what they want, usually it looks like cr@p. again that is what is approved so that is what is made.

in both cases, they are happy it looks exactly like they want it to look and have seen them leave positive reviews / word of mouth because of it.
Rather than the designs that they are convinced to change to, even if the new design is more "professional" they are unhappy and leave negative comments

 

[TimToad]

I disagree. Ultimately it's the customer that we have to please, not some graphic designer driving down the street scoffing at every sign they see. Ugly signs happen, just like ugly websites are made, ugly houses are built, and ugly art is made. It's all subjective. You see an ugly sign, the customer sees "their vision".

The best we can do is try to steer customers away from unappealing designs, but we're all here to (ultimately) make a living. If you turn away a customer with a design you consider ugly, somebody else will make it for them. Might as well get that sale.

We're also part of the equation as far as self-satisfaction and pride goes. We make a great living here, don't ignore or relish opportunities to steer our clients to better looking signs and even after nearly 40 years in the craft, rarely "mail it in". There is a statement we NEVER say in our shop: "It's good enough"

We are constantly pushing ourselves to do better designed, better built, more professional, more durable work. Having that pride and motivation hasn't resulted in us losing customers or coming off pompous to them. The opposite, because our clients see our commitment to providing them with effective, professional looking signs that work and help their businesses succeed. An old mentor used to tell me that he considered himself like an insurance policy for his customers and as long as they didn't burn the business down from poor management, it wasn't going a lousy looking sign that kept customers away. I've subscribed to that philosophy for my entire signmaking career. Go ask anyone around the Chicago area or Letterheads movement who Tom Cavanaugh was, and you'll find out the caliber of craftsmen he was.

I disagree with this idea that a well designed has to be overly complex, done only for extra compensation and only to please snooty graphic designers. Ot that it can't be done and still make a decent living.

It sounds like the excuses of those without the skills or confidence to do work of a quality that professional graphic designers would admire. When visiting lots of other signmaking Facebook groups, clubs, etc. I hear the same rationale from beginners and folks who lack the talent and skills to create well designed signs. I'm not suggesting that's your angle or motivation

Nobody is suggesting that we give away in depth design work for free, or that we not gauge the level of design time invested in proportion to the value of the job and work accordingly. All I know is that I haven't invested my life's work into learning a craft to have some half baked, untrained, half assed work producing hacks expect to be treated like peers, give the work away and diminish the craft just because they "made the customer happy" with some crappy looking work and not applying themselves to learn and practice the craft to its fullest.

 

[Rick]

Aaron Draplin and Saul Bass get to have different opinions than the rest of us. Haha!

I think the most salient point that Saul Bass made was, "It's important for us not to be under the illusion that anybody else cares." Do your work, do the best job you can do, and produce the best quality you can produce. Does that mean you have to like what you're doing? Nope. But you can make that turd shine.

I guess I'm another one who get to have a differing opinion, all I do is design, my clients come to me because of my work, portfolio and reputation, I've never been hired by a sign shop because I suck, do I occasionally get a client who wants to sabotage the process? He!! yeah, depending on how full my wallet is, I either do it and never gets into my portfolio, or send them to a designer willing to accommodate them. I make it a point to practice both... but after doing this for 39 years, I'm really struggling with the crap, half arsed stuff I see...

 

[equippaint]

On a positive note, I dont think the craft is lost. We take cheap throw away signs and pass judgement on the entire industry. Once you get passed the basic coroplast, acm and rta shops there is some real talent out there (and its not my shop). For me, I am intimidated when I get my newest signcraft in the mail and really question my abilities. I always have been. There are plenty of people producing awesome signs. As you get older your tolerance for nonsense goes down and you forget the past, or your perception of it changes. Either way it is still the same as it has always been. Really I think in the USA we have driven home the idea that price and/or value trumps all else to the point that we forget the satisfaction and value in good quality work. This is why houses have particle board cabinets and mdf trim. It looks the same and we have no pride in our possessions as long as others perceive us as successful We are too busy managing other peoples perception of ourselves rather than having that independent pride.

 

[DerbyCitySignGuy]

Are we talking about graphic design or signs? I feel like maybe Tim and Rick are talking specifically talking about design? For the record, I'm not a trained graphic designer. I do design, because I've had to learn how to do it over the years. Every time I send a proof, the first thing that pops into my head is, "They're going to hate this, you phony." Haha!

I'm not talking specifically about design. I'm talking about making signs, whether it's a sign that I've had a part in from design to finishing, or whether it's a sign where a customer supplies the art and all I do is hit print. Despite the design, we can still make quality signs that makes the end user happy. You don't have to put it in your portfolio. Not everything is about tooting your own horn, sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm not above providing an ugly sign to a happy customer if it puts food on my children's plates.

 

[Rick]

Are we talking about graphic design or signs? I feel like maybe Tim and Rick are talking specifically talking about design? For the record, I'm not a trained graphic designer. I do design, because I've had to learn how to do it over the years. Every time I send a proof, the first thing that pops into my head is, "They're going to hate this, you phony." Haha!

I'm not talking specifically about design. I'm talking about making signs, whether it's a sign that I've had a part in from design to finishing, or whether it's a sign where a customer supplies the art and all I do is hit print. Despite the design, we can still make quality signs that makes the end user happy. You don't have to put it in your portfolio. Not everything is about tooting your own horn, sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm not above providing an ugly sign to a happy customer if it puts food on my children's plates.

Sign design is graphic design... I didn't go to school for it. By the way I think quite a few of us have that "client is gonna hate it" fear...
I was trained in hand lettering, sign construction, and installation.

I'm thinking that not all sign shops are the same, most here are promotional sign shops. I have worked at a few, it's dirty, quick and messy sometimes. I have years of experience with it. But as I moved up the ladder I found that not all clients want cheap and fast.

A sign job starts with the design, you can have well crafted cr@p, or poorly made awesome design. Which will give the client the best result? I think both are required.

Since I only design, I have to have a good portfolio, too many bad projects (and I have had a few lately) then I will have nothing to show a potential client. Bad portfolio, no horn to toot.

Tim is a full fledged sign shop and has some amazing experience. We will be transitioning into sign fabrication and installation some point. And I'm insanely picky about how I want it done. It will not appeal to tire kickers, but then again, I'm not going after them.

I'm not trying to put food on my kids plate, I'm trying to get them through college and have the ability to semi-retire with some level of comfort. An interesting observation I have made years ago watching Dan Antonelli. There was a time where he charged 50 bucks a logo and worked out of his garage while writing great articles in Signcraft, he made a decision to change his thinking, and his business... I am doing the same thing...

 

[Rick]

Since the thread was sorta hijacked.... I thought I would give my 2 cents...

I hate when clients say "make it pretty" What does that mean...
We only get to see some random design with no real backstory or what I was thinking was, what does the original sign look like? So I looked. YIKES!

Looking at the original sign, I wouldn't have gone retro.
When I design I do some research to speed up my process. I would have googled "neighborhood wall sign" or "apartment wall sign" or flipped through my hundreds of sign magazines.

I agree with the critical statements... the thing that stands out to me is that the panel looks like a turd. It's obviously a retro design... if I were you, I would have researched "retro shapes"

The "DEED RESTRICTED" and "NO SOLICITING" does not work with the script or the color.

 

[HDvinyl]

Maybe give 'em their lake?

I looked at the shape of the lake, didn't think it would fly as a sign, but could've been a neat idea.

 

[Johnny Best]

I thought the two white lines were supposed to depict the lake, but I could be wrong.
The OP stated "I thought I did OK with this", meaning his layout of the sign. He must be a good salesman to sell that sign. 9' long HDU routed painted sign, that has to be installed so it is not going to be cheap.
Do not think he is going to change any of his layout after watching any of the videos posted or any of the suggestions about putting in a blue lake. Like he stated, he is a salesman, and probably good enough to sell refrigerators to Eskimos. He could probably help us all in that category of sign work.
Sometimes the word pretty is used for emphisis on the word awful.

 

[HDvinyl]

I tell my wife, "You're so pretty" when she does something dumb.

I also sometimes ask her to "Make it pop!"

 

[Johnny Best]

"Pop goes your weasel"

 

[Gino]

Like when she said..... I DO.

 

[HDvinyl]

Should I comment on your wife?

 

[Gino]

If you're talking to me.... at your own risk.

Rememeber, you're the one who said the stupid sh!t , again. Ya left yourself wide open. If you don't want comments directed at your self-proclaimed dumbness, then don't come to the sandbox.... especially if it's wet. Someone might've popped.

 

[HDvinyl]

popped or pooped?

You should know the word pooped, like you do on every other thread.