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I'm just a lowly sales guy... but...

JTBoh

JTBoh

I sell signage and signage accessories.
Customer loved the design. I did move the first "o" over a bit before sending it over.

The white lines are a bullsh** graphical representation of a lake, or whatever I have to say to sell a sign. I think I used the phrase "visual communication" 6 times yesterday. I'd much rather say "it looks pretty, dunnit?"... and then take their money.

Little bit of background. I walked into a sign shop and started as an installer, then production, then sales, then operations, and now design. Complete bass ackwards but I know every step and what it takes.
 
Johnny Best

Johnny Best

Active Member
JTBoh said:
Customer loved the design. I did move the first "o" over a bit before sending it over.

The white lines are a bullsh** graphical representation of a lake, or whatever I have to say to sell a sign. I think I used the phrase "visual communication" 6 times yesterday. I'd much rather say "it looks pretty, dunnit?"... and then take their money.

Little bit of background. I walked into a sign shop and started as an installer, then production, then sales, then operations, and now design. Complete bass ackwards but I know every step and what it takes.
Click to expand...
See, what did I tell you. We all could take some pointers from this guy on selling. He is the Visual Communicator!
No videos, no design talks on I did this or that, "customer loved the design" are the words we all want to hear.
As Babe Ruth said, "never let the fear of striking out get in your way".
 
T

TimToad

Active Member
DerbyCitySignGuy said:
Are we talking about graphic design or signs? I feel like maybe Tim and Rick are talking specifically talking about design? For the record, I'm not a trained graphic designer. I do design, because I've had to learn how to do it over the years. Every time I send a proof, the first thing that pops into my head is, "They're going to hate this, you phony." Haha!

I'm not talking specifically about design. I'm talking about making signs, whether it's a sign that I've had a part in from design to finishing, or whether it's a sign where a customer supplies the art and all I do is hit print. Despite the design, we can still make quality signs that makes the end user happy. You don't have to put it in your portfolio. Not everything is about tooting your own horn, sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm not above providing an ugly sign to a happy customer if it puts food on my children's plates.
Click to expand...


We're in far more agreement than our dialogue suggests. I never said that we or anyone should or does turn down jobs on design principle alone or ignore our bottom line. Some shops do refuse to do work they don't want their name associated with and we do make every effort to try and steer that handful of obstinate customers into a more effective design option, but ultimately we do some work that is designed by others and which we have no influence over. But we still do it to the best of ability and don't skimp on materials or the process.

I believe that signs and graphic design for other collateral or mediums are one in the same. When I open my new issue of Signcraft I see examples of those who know that there is little distinction and are doing some very inspirational work. We strive to balance between the "pay the bills" stuff and the work we'd be proud to share on social media, here or if ever asked in Signcraft or other publications. I'm sure most of them just like us get the same requests to just knock out some client supplied crap, collect the check and move on to the type work that keeps us enthused about what we do.

I'm fully aware of and subject to the same economic pressures as everybody else. We operate in what is ranked as the most expensive county in one of the most expensive states when average wages are factored in. Our county has about 250,000 total population, about 350 vineyards, lots of farms and ranches, tourism, some small industry, but mostly small businesses. Our target clients are vineyards, restaurants and the small business community like builders, contractors, service businesses, etc.

We compete against people who at times don't laminate their work including wraps, use inferior materials, pay below average wages with little or no benefits, paid holidays, vacations, etc. We know this because we've had former employees from several of our primary competition come work for us and confirm all of this. We just lost a wrap with 425 square feet of coverage on a 170" wheelbase Transport van for a longtime client to a competitor who quoted them $2,150 or $5.50 per square foot INSTALLED, a 40% cut from our price, which most would say isn't even fully valued in our cost of living area. We also just lost a nice 2'x12' panel wall sign job with some raised letters on it going on a deeply corrugated steel building with a very reasonable price to a nearly illegible, margin busting, poorly rendered, amateurish hand lettered job because the hack the client chose over us just shook his head and said "Sure, I'll letter a 15'6" wide monstrosity on your 16' wide building and rent a lift for a couple days to do it". Because the client told us what others were quoting her to do a hand lettered job, I have no doubt she revealed our quote for me to hand letter a well balanced, properly sized message on the same space to him and he likely beat it and offered to do whatever the hell she wanted no matter how it looked. You win some you lose some. This is a gourmet ice cream shop selling $5 small ice cream cones and supposedly very conscious of her image, but also completely dug in on getting exactly what SHE wanted no matter how bad it looks.

The flip side to the negative is that we also have some amazing peers and industry leaders in our area like Avila Design and Southpaw Signs. We aspire every day to be a credible alternative to them in terms of offering great design and well built signs that are a big cut above the average when desired.

The race to the bottom is intense and we try to take every job we can get and be efficient about getting them done. Sure, we get the occasional client who brings us some crap and just won't budge or accept any input, so we just hold our noses, get 'er done and pay a light bill with the dough.
 
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Billct2

Billct2

Active Member
Signs aren't just supposed to be pretty, they have a job to do, and if they don't do it then the customer might be happy, but they also might not get the return on their investment that they could have. And it's not a new problem, back when the Letterhead movement revived art deco and historic designs a lot of people trying to imitate them made beautiful signs that you couldn't read. And iit's gotten worse with the advent of digital printing, just look at some of the wraps that you see everyday that are indecipherable. Though I would also have made some of the suggested tweaks, especially to make it clear the it's Louisa not ouisa, at least it is legible.
 
DerbyCitySignGuy

DerbyCitySignGuy

New Member
TimToad said:
We're in far more agreement than our dialogue suggests. I never said that we or anyone should or does turn down jobs on design principle alone or ignore our bottom line. Some shops do refuse to do work they don't want their name associated with and we do make every effort to try and steer that handful of obstinate customers into a more effective design option, but ultimately we do some work that is designed by others and which we have no influence over. But we still do it to the best of ability and don't skimp on materials or the process.

I believe that signs and graphic design for other collateral or mediums are one in the same. When I open my new issue of Signcraft I see examples of those who know that there is little distinction and are doing some very inspirational work. We strive to balance between the "pay the bills" stuff and the work we'd be proud to share on social media, here or if ever asked in Signcraft or other publications. I'm sure most of them just like us get the same requests to just knock out some client supplied crap, collect the check and move on to the type work that keeps us enthused about what we do. We strive to balance between the "pay the bills" stuff and the work we'd be proud to share on social media, here or if ever asked in Signcraft or other publications.

I'm fully aware of and subject to the same economic pressures as everybody else. We operate in what is ranked as the most expensive county in one of the most expensive states when average wages are factored in. Our county has about 250,000 total population, about 350 vineyards, lots of farms and ranches, tourism, some small industry, but mostly small businesses. Our target clients are vineyards, restaurants and the small business community like builders, contractors, service businesses, etc.

We compete against people who at times don't laminate their work including wraps, use inferior materials, pay below average wages with little or no benefits, paid holidays, vacations, etc. We know this because we've had former employees from several of our primary competition come work for us and confirm all of this. We just lost a wrap with 425 square feet of coverage on a 170" wheelbase Transport van for a longtime client to a competitor who quoted them $2,150 or $5.50 per square foot INSTALLED, a 40% cut from our price, which most would say isn't even fully valued in our cost of living area. We also just lost a nice 2'x12' panel wall sign job with some raised letters on it going on a deeply corrugated steel building with a very reasonable price to a nearly illegible, margin busting, poorly rendered, amateurish hand lettered job because the hack the client chose over us just shook his head and said "Sure, I'll letter a 15'6" wide monstrosity on your 16' wide building and rent a lift for a couple days to do it". Because the client told us what others were quoting her to do a hand lettered job, I have no doubt she revealed our quote for me to hand letter a well balanced, properly sized message on the same space to him and he likely beat it and offered to do whatever the hell she wanted no matter how it looked. You win some you lose some. This is a gourmet ice cream shop selling $5 small ice cream cones and supposedly very conscious of her image, but also completely dug in on getting exactly what SHE wanted no matter how bad it looks.

The flip side to the negative is that we also have some amazing peers and industry leaders in our area like Avila Design and Southpaw Signs. We aspire every day to be a credible alternative to them in terms of offering great design and well built signs that are a big cut above the average when desired.

The race to the bottom is intense and we try to take every job we can get and be efficient about getting them done. Sure, we get the occasional client who brings us some crap and just won't budge or accept any input, so we just hold our noses, get 'er done and pay a light bill with the dough.
Click to expand...

Tone is sometimes difficult to translate into text, so hopefully you don't think I was being confrontational. Maybe I was misunderstanding what you were saying. I do think we're more in agreement than we are in disagreement after reading this post.

You're 100% right about the race to the bottom. It's not just in our industry either. It's a troubling trend.
 
bob

bob

It's better to have two hands than one glove.
Billct2 said:
Signs aren't just supposed to be pretty, they have a job to do, ...
Click to expand...

A good sign has three qualities; it must be legible, typographically correct, and it must be beautiful. That last thing, beautiful, is to satisfy you as well as the client. Otherwise something scrawled with a finger dipped in mayonnaise [never miracle whip] would do as well as anything. Something your nephew, who can draw, might create.
 
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Johnny Best

Johnny Best

Active Member
TimToad said:
The earth's axis has just shifted. I actually agreed with and liked comments by Bob and Gino in the same day.
Click to expand...

They say because of melting ice and global warming the earth's axis has shifted.
Are you saying that bob and Gino's hot air has something to do with it, then I would assume that is more of the cause of the shift you are feeling. But since you live in California and felt something move that might be something else entirely.
 
Gino

Gino

Premium Subscriber
Probably a bad piece of meat........ causing indigestion. Take a pink pill, Toad..... it'll go away.

:violet:​
 
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