In need of some beginner tips

[awstorer]

Hello everyone, I'm a Graphic Design student in my final year and I'm trying to get more involved in hand lettering etc.
The main avenue I've been interested in is traditional sign painting. For christmas my girlfriend got me some One Shot and some Kafka brushes, but there are some technique things that I am wondering about before painting my first sign.

It's pretty obvious to me that I don't just dip a brush in some paint/enamel and go for gold. Obviously thinning the paint is a good start, but I am at a little bit of a loss for how to go about this. I bought some Low Odour Turpentine and some Wax and Grease remover for prepping. From what I have figured so far is that I should use the wax and grease remover to prep a surface with a rag, and then use the turps to thin.

Am I right to assume for thinning, that I just paulette the brush in the turps once or twice then load it with paint the same way?
I know enough to use a cup/tray for the paint outside of the tins, as to not taint my entire paint supply.

I was also wondering about cleaning and maintaining my brushes, obviously I need to give them a thorough wash with water and turps, but do I also need some kind of brush oil, or oil in general?


Please note I am also from Australia so some names etc/availability could be a bit different.
Sorry if this is in the wrong section. the newbie section had a heap of vinyl cutting stuff so I avoided it. thanks in advance.

 

[J Hill Designs]

I learned to palette the brush with paint, and run through turps to get it flowing smooth...but I am way way below beginner level

 

[threeputt]

You are on the right track. Always "can-off" just enough paint for the project. The real small paper dixie cups work good. Back when I painted signs by brush for a living, we use to fold up little boxes from spent time cards (just the right thickness) and use them for both the container of paint (about 1"x2") and the flaps that were on there for palletteting our brush.

You might find these old techniques on Youtube or possibly you know an old school sign man. Have him show you.

By now you know that an open can of one shot will "skin over" when the can gets about 1/3 empty. Obtain (and keep clean) an artist's palette knife for cutting around the edges of this skin, right up against the side of the inside of the can. Scrape and drip any oils back into the can. Then re-stir. Never punch holes in the skin! Maintain a great respect for your paints. Keep them clean, stirred, and properly thinned. They are really, really your link to successful signpainting.

Some of us applied a very small amount of turps to the paint in the can before putting it back in the locker. Helps with the "skin" problem.

We used to use a special preparation called Darby's Reducer for thinning paint. Don't know if it's available anymore. One shot quite often was of the proper consistency right out of the can. (when newly opened)

Many factors will control how much reducer you need. (texture of surface, width of brush you're going to use, temperature, humidity, etc.)

Hope these thoughts help you. I admire your zeal and spirit to try and learn this craft. It's sort of going away, but there is still some demand. It's also rewarding to complete a hand painted sign.

 

[TammieH]

After cleaning we use to store our brushes soaked in oil, but laying flat with a 1/2" riser to lift the handle.And I know this is probably a sin but we use to use motor oil. However you store your brushes the bristles must remain straight, if they get a slight bend in them it really makes things difficult.

You will have to learn to pallet your brush as Jill said. Thin a small portion of your paint to a workable consistency, almost like milk, not to thin of course for a couple of reasons; the paint will not cover, it will run, and also fade faster.

When paletting your paint you will also introduce a bit of thinner from time to time, as the paint on your palette which is only enough to keep your brush loaded.

Practice!

Here is one book you can look through a couple pages online to get some idea

http://www.amazon.com/Sign-Painters-Faythe-Levine/dp/1616890835/ref=pd_sim_b_2

and a very good video from Youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMpyvlMzDr4

 

[threeputt]

Oh yeah, oil. You can use motor oil, but purists eschewed it for other types of natural oils. I think you can obtain "brush oil" from artists supply shops or if you're fortunate enough to have one nearby, a real honest to goodness sign supplier. Dont use lard oil.

After cleaning your brush well, (pay attention to the heel of the brush) work the oil in well, and "chisel" the brush. Lay flat on a flat paper towel or thing sponge type material, with the handle elevated slightly.

Maintain the brushes and show them huge respect. Be careful when cleaning squirrel hair quills as they can break off hairs at the base easily. They're expensive but will make you many times over your investment.

 

[phototec]

Here is another good video:

Roundhand Lettering Demo by Glen Weisgerber

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4165Pp8uns

Don't forget your Mahl stick!

 

[Gino]

Welcome from Pennsylvania...................

She's a keeper Any girlfriend who has enough thoughtfulness to do something like that..... is gold.
​

 

[awstorer]

Thanks for all the advice, certainly some helpers.
And yeah, I've watched and read everything I can find. I wish Glen Weisgerber had his own channel =[

I've been trying to track down a mahl stick / contemplating trying to make one.
Also something else I was wondering about, what kind of pencils do people use to roughly mark up signs? I'm assuming some kind of wax pencil to show up on the metal/wood/whatever youre painting, but then does that get in the way of the sign bonding with the substrate?

 

[d fleming]

Used mineral oil for my brushes over the years.

 

[Craig Sjoquist]

Clean brushes using mineral spirits, dirty, med dirty, clean can, save the turps for thinner when that runs out 1-Shots Chromaflo 6000 works better & less stink.

Oil brush after with Mineral oil or Baby oil ....Y es any oil will work but you want a oil that does not have chemicals in it for longer lasting or will not dry out over time, this will also get the paint out that ya did not clean 100%

DO NOT USE WATER ...it will fuzz out cause you used with oil 1st.

Palette the brush allows you to find the consistent flow needed to letter

Mike Meyer most likely will be down under sometime this year & will put on a workshop hope ya can go...http://www.mikemeyerworkshop.com watch for it or ask
Staedtler ..Lumocolor Omnichrom ..blue or white not red in anything even chalk also China marker, chalk, washable Crayons, Stabilos

Oh by the way ...Welcome to a outstanding Signs 101 & people

Been enjoying hand painting signs 39 years & on into the future ... keep at it, any questions glad to help

 

[awstorer]

thanks for that link and info! hopefully he comes to australia soon.
also I was thinking for general practice I could buy a whiteboard (like the ones you have in school or whatever). they seem similar to "practice boards" which are kind of expensive anyway, and I'd need to order one from overseas which would kill me in shipping. Does anyone see any problems with using a whiteboard?

I also got some practice sheets from new bohemia signs that should be really helpful.


EDIT: continuining on the mahl stick talk, does anyone here have a good technique of making one? I'm sure some of you older guys have some tips and tricks for what makes a killer one.

 

[Jillbeans]

You can use a piece of glass for practice. Print out some lettering on paper and tape it to the back of the glass. Then scrape it off after it dries with a razor blade and start again.
I don't pallette my paint. (most people use old magazines for this) I use the edge of my cup (I like the little shot glass sized plastic cups)
Never use cups with a wax coating and be careful with the plastic cups because sometimes they melt.
I use turpentine only, never mineral spirits for a tad of thinning (only a few drops) and for cleaning. I oil my brushes with baby oil.
Just painted with Glen over the weekend, he is really something to see.
I only use a mahl stick when I want to look like a sign painter...but you can make one yourself with a dowel rod and a small rubber ball.
N Glantz sells them locally but you can probably buy one online.
There are lots of Letterheads Down Under and a very active meet community there.
You might be able to find a local meet via the Letterville website.
Love....Jill

 

[Gino]

Ahh.. save your money on that crap.

Get the daily newspaper and use the columns and lines of printed copy as your guide lines and start practicing straight lines from the top... down and 1/2 curves from top to bottom left to right and then right to left. Then sideways straight lines. There are only four movements, straight both ways and curves from both sides. Connecting them and spacing them comes with more practice. Always pull the brush towards you.... never away from you. You have complete control when pulling, but not going away from your body. Oh, and ya might as well use tempera paints. It's a lot cheaper for practicing and training.

Once you can do these lines in your sleep, palette some 1Shot on an opened magazine page with real turps, none of the non-smelly crap and a #6 quill..... and practice the same thing on a piece of glass. Once the glass is full, wipe it off and start over. Paletting is done to work the paint into the brush for a comfortable feel of consistency. You don't use much turps at all. Too much turps will speed things up, but makes your paint too thin and ruins the viscosity of the paint itself. Keep doing it until you feel its muscle memory in your hand. Once you have that down, start forming letters. Get yourself an old calligrapher's book like a 'Speedball' chart and basically use their explanations for letter forming. Unless you're doing knockout work, letters are built/formed until they are what you want. Big one next...... don't get into the habit of using scotch tape, for in the long run, it will hinder you.

Good luck...................
​

 

[TammieH]

Here is another good video:

Roundhand Lettering Demo by Glen Weisgerber

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4165Pp8uns

Don't forget your Mahl stick!

That is beautiful to watch, I wish I could remember the name of the showcard artist back in Cincy, first name Chuck? I am not sure. he would go around and do showcards for a couple sign companies back in the 70's, I use to love to watch him work, I first met him when I was 19...wow, a lifetime ago

I noticed another video by the same artist

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3WZNSGBsoc

 

[TammieH]

Ahh.. save your money on that crap.

Get the daily newspaper and use the columns and lines of printed copy as your guide lines and start practicing straight lines from the top... down and 1/2 curves from top to bottom left to right and then right to left. Then sideways straight lines. There are only four movements, straight both ways and curves from both sides. Connecting them and spacing them comes with more practice. Always pull the brush towards you.... never away from you. You have complete control when pulling, but not going away from your body. Oh, and ya might as well use tempera paints. It's a lot cheaper for practicing and training.

Once you can do these lines in your sleep, palette some 1Shot on an opened magazine page with real turps, none of the non-smelly crap and a #6 quill..... and practice the same thing on a piece of glass. Once the glass is full, wipe it off and start over. Paletting is done to work the paint into the brush for a comfortable feel of consistency. You don't use much turps at all. Too much turps will speed things up, but makes your paint too thin and ruins the viscosity of the paint itself. Keep doing it until you feel its muscle memory in your hand. Once you have that down, start forming letters. Get yourself an old calligrapher's book like a 'Speedball' chart and basically use their explanations for letter forming. Unless you're doing knockout work, letters are built/formed until they are what you want. Big one next...... don't get into the habit of using scotch tape, for in the long run, it will hinder you.

Good luck...................
​

Great advice!

 

[studio 440]

lard oil is what we used for years now i use walldog brush oil

 

[Billct2]

What Gino said about practicing the basic strokes that form the letters is exactly how they started us at Butera Sign Painting School. But what Jill said about using a piece of glass with paper patterns under it to copy is more satisfying.
I hardly ever used a mahl stick, learned the hand over hand method. Palette my brush on the side of the cardborad hot cups I use. When it became difficult to find brush oil I switched to transmission fluid because it was suppose to be easier on the bristles.

 

[Dronex]

I've been lettering for almost a year now and it can be frustrating finding information on the subject.. Luckily, everyone here seems happy to share their hard earned wisdom with us greenhorns. While scrolling way back through the handlettering forum I ran into a post titled "treasure trove of sign textbooks" you can do a search- Theres a huge list of links to downloadable pdfs of old painting and lettering texts. Most of them are about 100 years old so you can probably disregard all the paint recipes calling for 50 pounds of white lead- but most of the technical information is still relevant, and the alphabets are timeless. They even have E.C. Matthews in the house! http://www.archive.org/details/howtopaintsignss00matt just open them up as PDF's and click the disk icon to save em..

 

[Dovette]

I've been lettering for almost a year now and it can be frustrating finding information on the subject.. Luckily, everyone here seems happy to share their hard earned wisdom with us greenhorns. While scrolling way back through the handlettering forum I ran into a post titled "treasure trove of sign textbooks" you can do a search- Theres a huge list of links to downloadable pdfs of old painting and lettering texts. Most of them are about 100 years old so you can probably disregard all the paint recipes calling for 50 pounds of white lead- but most of the technical information is still relevant, and the alphabets are timeless. They even have E.C. Matthews in the house! http://www.archive.org/details/howtopaintsignss00matt just open them up as PDF's and click the disk icon to save em..

Oh my goodness, this is extremely helpful.
Thanks for the great post!

 

[nodrenim]

In need of beginner tips

Good advice from everyone, as far as I am concerned, having been in the business for over 53 years, and still loving it. I use a product called 3 in one oil for my brushes, seems to work the best for me. Mice love lard oil, will chew your brushes to bits. Motor oil just doesn't seem to last, and the heels of my brushes hardened. Good Luck and hang in there, it is worth the time and effort. Peace