Income Inequality

[equippaint]

Again, TimToad those things you are listing come down to choices. We don't have to have health insurance, we don't have to have kids, we don't have to pay taxes, we don't have to have welfare, we don't have to have any of those things to survive.

There were studies that have shown the Human lifespan, based on nature, should be around 50 years but because of advancements in socialized living and medicine, we are far outliving that. So would you not agree that we are altering nature and creating our own downfall? If we were to go back 250 years at the birth of industrialization, where the average lifespan was in the 40s, would we not say that we were on natures course and our greed to live longer and to gain more material is our own defeat?

Unless one study shows me that us fixing the inequality of Pay is sustainable and that our natural life has been inhibited prior to fixing that gap, I would still be reasonable to say that income inequality is total crap. To me, we are living beyond our means as it is.

This subject was the main factor in the collapse of the Roman Empire. We are living beyond our means and you can thank easy access to credit for that one. Really, a lot of the inflated costs are from this, college, cars, houses, furniture, phones and even healthcare (insurance is essentially hybrid financing). Poor people don't own spending too much. I see hardworking people doing it all the time, theres not any income level in which this stops. But, that's another problem too.
Welfare was mentioned so here's another way to look at that, it can go together with this. I hate people abusing it and really the notion of it except out of extreme necessity. I have learned to accept it for 1 reason. The people that live off these things are not going to work - ever. They are not going to get motivated to help themselves, they will not accept responsibility for their lives but they are going to eat and they are going to do whatever nonsense they want to do. So you can either take a few bucks from your taxes and keep them under the rug and have no problems or keep the couple bucks and have desperate people stealing your crap and lowering your overall quality of life. I have accepted it as a very small price to pay for better quality of life. It's not right but it is what it is. The system is more for me than it is for them.

 

[Stacey K]

This is what I tell my boys and it was told to me. You will never get rich punching a clock 40 hours a week for someone else. You don't need to have a college degree or rich parents to get ahead. If you're not going to college to be something extraordinary, you better be handy! Go to tech school, get a welding degree or something of that nature, buy a rental property, live in the dump while you fix it up then buy another one. Then buy another one, then buy another one. Or cut grass on the side, then cut more and more. You won't need cable because you will be too busy working. You won't need a new truck because your going to scratch it up hauling drywall or lawn mowers around. Punch a clock 40 hours a week and work on your rental property, cut grass, shovel snow, weld on the side, fix small motors, DO SOMETHING EXTRA!!! The hard work and long hours will pay off, maybe you can open your own business! Oh...and you better find yourself a wife that has the same goals. If she buys Coach purses, gets her nails and hair done every two weeks and only works part-time at the local mini-mart, run for the hills because she will suck you dry! Getting ahead is always more enjoyable when it's a team effort, I learned THAT part the hard way!

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

TimToad, I know you are all about citing our references: here is but 1 of many https://ourworldindata.org/life-expectancy

Just 120 years the USA more than double its life expenctancy and is 30 years beyond our "Natural" expectancy. So please tell me how Income Inequality is leading to a lower quality of life when modern expensive medicine has gifted us with 40+ years on average... oh yeah and most of that is due to vaccines and nothing more.

 

[TimToad]

We now live in a world of instant gratification. I want it now and if I don't get it, it's societies fault. No one want to work hard to work their way up. Fast food used to be an entry level workforce position, part time for high school kids. Now people think a fast food wage should support a family and a new home. I also think much of this is caused by people not knowing how to budget and manage their money. I have worked with plenty of people over the years who constantly over extend themselves to keep up with the Jones', only to be digging a deeper hole. I see employees, eating out 5 days a week, 150 channels on the TV, a pack a day habit, and they visit Disneyland twice a year, but they don't understand the concept of rent or a house payment due on the 1st of the month. We read a study about what motivates people and for all the complaining about money, it's never the top of the list.

The "morality" trap is a highly anecdotal, not statistically verified ATTITUDE proponents of it possess, not the other way around. Those using it as an argument are ignoring huge, deeply entrenched economic insecurity, systematic shortcomings and real need out there. Food insecurity is widespread and most of the lower working classes are not going out to eat five days a week. Your buying into a stereotype and urban myth because it fits your narrative.

FFS, the minimum wage hasn't been increased in 10 YEARS. So the elderly get Social Security raises every year, the rich get tax cuts every time Congress breathes. Is anyone in anywhere except the most low cost region really able to survive on $7.25 per hour? Don't kid yourself if you think that many employers don't base their wages on that as a baseline.

 

[TimToad]

Again, TimToad those things you are listing come down to choices. We don't have to have health insurance, we don't have to have kids, we don't have to pay taxes, we don't have to have welfare, we don't have to have any of those things to survive.

There were studies that have shown the Human lifespan, based on nature, should be around 50 years but because of advancements in socialized living and medicine, we are far outliving that. So would you not agree that we are altering nature and creating our own downfall? If we were to go back 250 years at the birth of industrialization, where the average lifespan was in the 40s, would we not say that we were on natures course and our greed to live longer and to gain more material is our own defeat?

Unless one study shows me that us fixing the inequality of Pay is sustainable and that our natural life has been inhibited prior to fixing that gap, I would still be reasonable to say that income inequality is total crap. To me, we are living beyond our means as it is.

Sorry, you can't have it both ways. You can't assert that human morality, behaviors and conscious choices drive the American experience than fall back on some natural, law of the jungle claptrap when it suits a new argument you want to sidestep to.

 

[Jburns]

I dont know about California, but in Colorado minimum wage is Irrelevant. Employers cannot baseline pay on min wage.
At this unemploment rate, no one can pay minimum wage.

CO State is 11.10- something. Hamburger place down the street Starting hiring at 14.00 per hour on marquee. Kroger Grocery store 15 plus per hour. It truly is an entry level workers market at this time. I will post a photo for proof if needed.

Here:

 

[TimToad]

TimToad, I know you are all about citing our references: here is but 1 of many https://ourworldindata.org/life-expectancy

Just 120 years the USA more than double its life expenctancy and is 30 years beyond our "Natural" expectancy. So please tell me how Income Inequality is leading to a lower quality of life when modern expensive medicine has gifted us with 40+ years on average... oh yeah and most of that is due to vaccines and nothing more.

So, we should put the population genie back in the bottle how?

We're already serving up the natural world on a plate for the sake of continuing a high consumption, overtly materialistic life. Now after we've all enjoyed the party, the rest of the planet and the poor should just die and go away?

 

[Snydo]

The hippies of the 60's have largely been running this country the last 50 years, is it any wonder why everything is a bassackwards greedy mess right now?
If we can survive another decade without imploding most of them will be Florida where they belong.(No offense to any current Floridians)

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

So, we should put the population genie back in the bottle how?

We're already serving up the natural world on a plate for the sake of continuing a high consumption, overtly materialistic life. Now after we've all enjoyed the party, the rest of the planet and the poor should just die and go away?

I never brought morality in to this conversation and I'm hiding behind nothing, my cards are on the table. I based my ideals on the simple fact that the natural world we live in has given us a time stamp... An unequal one at that, and we have created our own issues through the greed of wanting more time ala longer life. I'm simply stating that although it's unfortunate the world is not equal we are subject to the natural order of things set forth by the big bang, God, Budda, Allah, take your pick.

Am I envious of others success? yes. Do I feel it's unfair they have more than me? sometimes yes. Do I accept that is the natural order of things? Absolutely yes. Do I feel I can change things? Yes.

Seriously if you feel everything is so unfair, I implore you to give 100% of your income to the government and ask them to manage your income on a fair basis.

 

[Johnny Best]

Read the news today where a 27 year old man who worked as a DJ in bars and had gotten his jaw broken in a bar fight. Turns out Blue Cross Blue Shield sent him $33,000. He went on a binge and was found in a hotel room with liquor, cocaine and heroin, dead.
Now someone else might take that money, buy a printer, plotter and try to start a business or invest in a start up and try to make more money. Even buy some new farm equipment to double the output.
My point being, who knows the answer to this equality thing. Yea, its the Hippies from the 60s, or our form of government, our leaders, our living longer. We have had this problem, if it is one, for as long as man has been walking upright. We kill each other in war to acquire more land, we seek gold in new found lands to become wealthy, invent the lightbulb, write code for new software, start Facebook which is free, but make billions. people always want more than what they have, not all, but most. There is nothing wrong with that, but if you make $300,000 a year you live on that but you strive to make more. You make minimum wage, you want someone to raise it for you so you can stop the worry over paying bills. So vote for such in such and he will lead you to Eldorado where the streets are paved with gold and you can wear jackets made of Hummingbird feathers.
So maybe the guy had it right, he had a bunch of money in the bank and instead of living longer and growing old in a nursing home he went out early to avoid the misery.

 

[TimToad]

Read the news today where a 27 year old man who worked as a DJ in bars and had gotten his jaw broken in a bar fight. Turns out Blue Cross Blue Shield sent him $33,000. He went on a binge and was found in a hotel room with liquor, cocaine and heroin, dead.
Now someone else might take that money, buy a printer, plotter and try to start a business or invest in a start up and try to make more money. Even buy some new farm equipment to double the output.
My point being, who knows the answer to this equality thing. Yea, its the Hippies from the 60s, or our form of government, our leaders, our living longer. We have had this problem, if it is one, for as long as man has been walking upright. We kill each other in war to acquire more land, we seek gold in new found lands to become wealthy, invent the lightbulb, write code for new software, start Facebook which is free, but make billions. people always want more than what they have, not all, but most. There is nothing wrong with that, but if you make $300,000 a year you live on that but you strive to make more. You make minimum wage, you want someone to raise it for you so you can stop the worry over paying bills. So vote for such in such and he will lead you to Eldorado where the streets are paved with gold and you can wear jackets made of Hummingbird feathers.
So maybe the guy had it right, he had a bunch of money in the bank and instead of living longer and growing old in a nursing home he went out early to avoid the misery.

Do you mind sharing the link to the story you're basing your opinions on?

Why would a healthcare insurance company just give someone $33,000 because he was injured in a fight?

I think there are plenty of really smart people out there and no shortage of examples of other economic models that encourage private enterprise, free markets, guaranteed educational opportunities, better than average healthcare, respect for the environment, gender equality, etc.

If our culture could ever admit that maybe our way isn't the ONLY way or isn't the best at everything, we could learn something from those examples.

FWIW, $30k in the bank wouldn't be enough to sustain an American retiree for very long without the help that Social Security and Medicare provide.

 

[bob]

You are what you have chosen to be. You are responsible for your own condition. If you are rich, poor, fat, slim, whatever this is what you have chosen. Not one big choice rather the sum total of all of the choices you've made in what passes for your life.

No one but you is responsible for your choices.

 

[unclebun]

Do you mind sharing the link to the story you're basing your opinions on?

Why would a healthcare insurance company just give someone $33,000 because he was injured in a fight?

I think there are plenty of really smart people out there and no shortage of examples of other economic models that encourage private enterprise, free markets, guaranteed educational opportunities, better than average healthcare, respect for the environment, gender equality, etc.

If our culture could ever admit that maybe our way isn't the ONLY way or isn't the best at everything, we could learn something from those examples.

FWIW, $30k in the bank wouldn't be enough to sustain an American retiree for very long without the help that Social Security and Medicare provide.

It was on cnn.com this morning. I read it too. The check was for his emergency room bill because he went to an out of network emergency room. BC/BS sends the money to the patient, not the provider, when it's out of network. He was supposed to use the money to pay the emergency room bill.

 

[Johnny Best]

Here ya go Toad. CNN app was on my IPhone 10x when I got it. You think I made that story up.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/23/health/anthem-blue-cross-payments-patient-overdose/index.html

 

[TimToad]

It was on cnn.com this morning. I read it too. The check was for his emergency room bill because he went to an out of network emergency room. BC/BS sends the money to the patient, not the provider, when it's out of network. He was supposed to use the money to pay the emergency room bill.

Got it.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/23/health/anthem-blue-cross-payments-patient-overdose/index.html

So what exactly does this tragedy have to do with income inequality?

 

[Johnny Best]

You probably need a pulitzer prize writer to show and convince you of understanding that Toad. I am not that person to explain that to you. I also don't want to go over my post limit as the member mentioned at the start of their thread.
Now I am #3 posts and I was only hoping for #1 but I had to show you the article and don't have time for holding your hand through the rest of it.

 

[Bobby H]

As usual in discussions on topics like this certain misconceptions get dragged out and repeated. That wouldn't happen without a little thought and maybe a tad bit of research.

Regarding the tangent about life expectancy in the United States, here's a little news flash: life expectancy in the United States has been going DOWN. The US is in its longest decline of life expectancy since the 1915-1918 period. Back then World War I and the 1918 influenza pandemic were to blame. Today the averages are being driven down by multiple factors. Of the top 10 leading causes of death, only cancer has seen a decrease in mortality rate. Lots of Americans are dying in their 20's and 30's. We all know about drug overdose deaths hitting record levels lately. The suicide rate in the US is at its highest level in 50 years. More than 3 times as many Americans are dying by their own hand than are killed by others.

Many Americans believe we're in a population explosion. The truth is birth rates have fallen into regressive levels in almost every developed nation. The "replacement rate" is 2.1 births per female. That's what it takes to replace those who die. The US is at 1.77 births per female now, the US hasn't been clearly above the 2.1 level since the early 1970's. As I said earlier, all our net population gains have been coming via immigration. Most nations in Europe have even lower total fertility rates. Same for Russia. Japan is down to 1.2 births per female. TFR rates that low over a sustained time will create a major imbalance between elderly/retired population numbers and a much smaller working class.

Then there's the complaints about minimum wage being too high or someone starting out at a grocery store making $15 per hour. Here's a big question for those making the complaint: what city is that store located and what are the living costs like there? I can recall friends of mine here in Lawton griping about "communist liberals" when San Francisco announced it wanted to raise its minimum wage to $15 per hour. Well, $15 per hour in San Francisco doesn't buy squat. That would be like making $1 per hour in my town. Many large cities around the country have living costs that far outstrip minimum wage levels.

Another person rolled out the whole "you have to own your own business to get a decent paycheck." The problem with that ideal is many businesses still need grown adults as employees. Shouldn't those employees at least be able to afford to survive? The cost of living in my city is lower than the national average. But minimum wage pay ($7.25 here) isn't enough to cut it. Another comment I hear about "burger flipper" jobs is "those aren't career jobs." The implication is those jobs are just meant for high school kids to learn how to work. Fine. If that's the real purpose of those jobs then why don't we close down every fast food joint during school hours? Only let those places open a couple hours in the evening! If I go to Subway or McDonald's during my lunch break (and while school is in session) I see nothing but grown adults at the counter and back in the kitchen. They may not work at those jobs long term, but while they're working there they need to at least be able to survive. Under the current environment they need to work multiple jobs like that or have other "side hustles" just to make enough money for ends to meet. It's a catch-22 situation as well; how is someone going to train for a better job if all his time is taken up by working multiple s*** jobs?

Lots of Americans have this belief that anyone can excel at doing anything if they work hard enough. Some dude from the ghetto cleaning gas station toilets can go to Harvard and run a Fortune 500 corporation if he would just get off his lazy butt and do it. Simple financial math doesn't support that romantic trope of "rags to riches Americana." There is a tremendous inequity going in with public school systems around the nation. Poor school districts often guarantee poor outcomes. And then the latest scandal with rich executives and celebrities gaming college admissions systems for their kids is just another sign to show how stacked the deck really can be. The truth is success comes to you a hell of a lot easier if you're the right race, you live in the right neighborhood, your family is well-off, etc. You still have to put work into it nevertheless. But if you're from the wrong side of the tracks you're going to have to work a hell of a lot harder and need more luck on your side to get there.

I'm really disgusted by the open hostility and hatred toward people of younger generations. "Those lazy millennials!" People in my age group (Generation X) and older seem to think all kinds of vices and general laziness were invented just recently. The truth is all those problems have always been around. Every generation has its own big share of awful people.

In the end, we can try to defend the status quo and pretend things like "income inequality" or blatant price gouging of vital things like housing and health care don't exist. We can sit back and let the so-called "free market" sort it out in a form of Economic Darwinism. But letting the chips fall where they may will come at a big cost to this nation. For one thing it's the not-so-rich "little people" who sign up to serve in our military. If we pummel the middle and lower income groups to where they can't afford to marry, start families, buy homes, etc our nation will not have a long term future.

The world's population is still growing overall. But the highest growth rates are in "poor" and not so peaceful developing nations. The 10 nations with the highest percentage of youth are all in Africa. Match that with the declining native populations in Europe and the emerging situation we have here. It makes for an interesting geo-political situation a couple or more decades from now. But if you're an old, white dude only concerned about his own thing then it's not a problem!

 

[Gino]

Got it.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/23/health/anthem-blue-cross-payments-patient-overdose/index.html

If our culture could ever admit that maybe our way isn't the ONLY way or isn't the best at everything, we could learn something from those examples.

So what exactly does this tragedy have to do with income inequality?

Not so much as what it has to do with anything, but you called him out on it, so perhaps, you thought it had something to do with it, also. Why did you doubt him ?? Calling someone out like that with your followup statements, is as much as calling someone a liar. I'd think about your appraoch mr toadster.

As for your other statement in glowing pink..... If you, don't like things the way they are in our culture, did you ever think about doing what so many of your friends promised to do, but still have not done thus far ?? MOVE ?!?!?​

 

[TimToad]

Here ya go Toad. CNN app was on my IPhone 10x when I got it. You think I made that story up.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/23/health/anthem-blue-cross-payments-patient-overdose/index.html

No I don't. I just asked for the link and hadn't ever heard of such a tactic being employed by health care insurers. I knew that many auto insurers will send the check directly to the car owner, but had no idea the health insurers did this to put pressure on out of network provider to join their network.

I think the tragic story of this young man's life has little to do with income inequality and is an even greater indictment of our for profit healthcare system, lack of comprehensive mental healthcare and the hopelessness that addicts confront every day.

 

[TimToad]

Not so much as what it has to do with anything, but you called him out on it, so perhaps, you thought it had something to do with it, also. Why did you doubt him ?? Calling someone out like that with your followup statements, is as much as calling someone a liar. I'd think about your appraoch mr toadster.

As for your other statement in glowing pink..... If you, don't like things the way they are in our culture, did you ever think about doing what so many of your friends promised to do, but still have not done thus far ?? MOVE ?!?!?​

You must be so proud to be the person to thrash the thread and turn it into your usual drama.