Inconsistent print lengths - SureColor S50675

[FactorDesign]

I can't really find much about these printers. I don't know if there aren't many out there, or if they all run so perfectly that no one posts about them.

I'm noticing print lengths that vary slightly, but not in a manner that can be adjusted for. Ran the print length calibration and it was out by less than 1mm, and examples below were printed after that adjustment.

Example #1: Wall wrap printed in 2 horizontal panels. About midway through the design, the pattern no longer matches up. Either the bottom panel is shorter, or the top is longer. Perhaps 1/4" off over the 86" length. Material = Oracal 3651RA

Example #2: Printed a Phototex wall graphic. 40 feet long 1 piece. Actual print measures out to 39' 10.5"
Material = Phototex OPA.


Any ideas? I'm just scratching my head trying to figure out what to do.

 

[ColorCrest]

A few things...

Be sure only a single print length adjustment is being used. Either the RIP (suggested) or the machine on-board, not both. If using the RIP, be sure it is actually controlling the print length.

You're calibrating each print length correction using the actually material, right?

Usually for panels to match up, every other panel is flipped in the RIP. It's a simple setting.

I hope this helps.

 

[Solventinkjet]

There is definitely a margin of error when it comes to print length but these days the manufacturers aren't releasing that spec for some reason. So for an 8' print you should expect to be off by about 1/8" - 1/4" depending on environmental factors and how stretchy the material is etc. The longer you go after that, the more you should expect to be off. In your example 1 you are off by ~0.3% and in example 2 you are off by ~0.31% which means the printer is actually printing off in a consistent manner which means you should be able to reign it in by perfecting your print feed calibration. But as said before, if I remember correctly, 0.3% is just about to spec for these machines.

 

[FactorDesign]

ColorCrest,
I've confirmed that the print calibration is done only on the machine, not in the rip software. I will see if setting it through the RIP is more accurate / consistent. The calibration was done using the same media from example 1.

VanderJ,
Thank you for that math, I hadn't thought to look at the % of error yet. The issue I'm having with it though is that sometimes it is long, and sometimes it is short, and sometimes even when printing 2 panels one after the other.

 

[Solventinkjet]

ColorCrest,
I've confirmed that the print calibration is done only on the machine, not in the rip software. I will see if setting it through the RIP is more accurate / consistent. The calibration was done using the same media from example 1.

VanderJ,
Thank you for that math, I hadn't thought to look at the % of error yet. The issue I'm having with it though is that sometimes it is long, and sometimes it is short, and sometimes even when printing 2 panels one after the other.

Yeah unfortunately the error is +/- 0.3%. Does your machine have the feed and take-up systems? If it does, it should be more accurate. Also, there is something called an encoder disc that affects the print feed. I don't know where it is on that machine but it might be behind the left side cover. It will be a clear plastic disc that you can clean with alcohol. Get the dust and any ink off of it and see if that helps. If it is really dirty it can mess up the print length.

 

[FactorDesign]

Yeah unfortunately the error is +/- 0.3%. Does your machine have the feed and take-up systems? If it does, it should be more accurate. Also, there is something called an encoder disc that affects the print feed. I don't know where it is on that machine but it might be behind the left side cover. It will be a clear plastic disc that you can clean with alcohol. Get the dust and any ink off of it and see if that helps. If it is really dirty it can mess up the print length.

Yes, this does have the heavy duty feed and take-up system. I wasn't aware of that disc, I will see if I can find it. I've only been at this new shop for 4 months and I was told when I was hired that the machine did not print accurate length.

 

[ColorCrest]

Your reply is telling.

So, I recommend you set aside some time and download the PDF manual for your machine and print the pages especially regarding loading and take-up and the media setting sections. Use a hi-lighter to markup the key parts that you find and keep those notes handy for your near-term reference.

Understand the loading and take-up is critical and the machine will perform as advertised. Don’t underestimate the loading instructions regarding tension. The feed is “smart.” You will notice it undergo both tension and slack but too much (drum-tight or slack to the floor) is abnormal. The machine also has an “auto media adjust” feature that actually works well as it accounts for the varied length of roll usage while printing. Many shops however, are old-school and turn it off because they trust their RIP to handle the length adjustment. Again, either way is fine but not both.

Also be sure to understand what Epson is calling their (30) “media banks.” Each should be dedicated to a certain media setup. Your RIP should trigger these channels in use (when you have the RIP do so) for each different media you use. Each channel can control the media advance as well as other important settings such as heaters, etc. Epson goes so far as to recommend creating dedicated channels for each media width but I have not found this necessary.

You have a good machine. At worst, the feed and take-up assemblies were not satisfactorily installed.

Good luck.

 

[FactorDesign]

Your reply is telling.

So, I recommend you set aside some time and download the PDF manual for your machine and print the pages especially regarding loading and take-up and the media setting sections. Use a hi-lighter to markup the key parts that you find and keep those notes handy for your near-term reference.

Understand the loading and take-up is critical and the machine will perform as advertised. Don’t underestimate the loading instructions regarding tension. The feed is “smart.” You will notice it undergo both tension and slack but too much (drum-tight or slack to the floor) is abnormal. The machine also has an “auto media adjust” feature that actually works well as it accounts for the varied length of roll usage while printing. Many shops however, are old-school and turn it off because they trust their RIP to handle the length adjustment. Again, either way is fine but not both.

Also be sure to understand what Epson is calling their (30) “media banks.” Each should be dedicated to a certain media setup. Your RIP should trigger these channels in use (when you have the RIP do so) for each different media you use. Each channel can control the media advance as well as other important settings such as heaters, etc. Epson goes so far as to recommend creating dedicated channels for each media width but I have not found this necessary.

You have a good machine. At worst, the feed and take-up assemblies were not satisfactorily installed.

Good luck.

Thank you ColorCrest!
I've been working with Roland machines for about 10 years, but have zero experience maintaining the Epson machines. I got about half an hour of 'here's how you clean it and load it' from the guy whom I replaced, and in general the machine has been fantastic in printing. I am told it isn't quite as nice as the GS6000 that sits next to it, but that machine doesn't run currently (black ink clogged or head dead. never saw it run). I'll spend some of our current downtime studying the manual. Already fixed the 60" Graphtec cutter and got the optical system dialed in, so once I get the S50675 tuned up it will save a lot of nail biting when having to print hundreds of large panels once trade show season kicks back in.

 

[ColorCrest]

I am told it isn't quite as nice as the GS6000 that sits next to it, but that machine doesn't run

Well yes, except right now, ANY printer that can make an image is better that your out-of-commission GS6000 right? ! ! ! Is the black missing from both heads? When you get it back in service you will notice its a very good print quality and why its used for so much fine art reproduction.

Anyway, you can keep a small LED flashlight in both machines and use the mirrored tray to see the heads to easily swab or rubber blade them with fluid for routine maintenance. Any fibrous media may collect on the heads as lint and may need to be swabbed away every couple of hours or so. Depends on the media.

 

[Solventinkjet]

I am told it isn't quite as nice as the GS6000 that sits next to it,

Not by a long shot. The SureColor is definitely the winner in that competition. The GS6000 was an Epson printer that was manufactured by Mutoh. The SureColor is the first fully Epson designed and manufactured solvent based printer. Because of this, the SureColor uses the latest Epson print heads that don't get used in any other brand. Basically, the GS6000, and all other Epson based brands, is one generation back in print head technology and the only printer that is using the newest print heads is the SureColor.

 

[FactorDesign]

After reading the PDF manual, I'm seeing some differences in how I was told to load the media than how Epson says to do it, or their wording is slightly confusing.

How I have been told to load media:
#1 - Printing Opaque media - High pressure rollers moved off to the far edges not contacting the media, low pressure rollers aligned to the black squares.
#2 - Transparent media / multiple imprint - High pressure rollers aligned to edges of media, low pressure rollers moved away from black squares.

How I understand Epson says it should be done:
#1 - Printing Opaque media - High pressure rollers aligned to edges of media, low pressure rollers aligned to the black squares. *
#2 - Transparent media / multiple imprint - High pressure rollers aligned to edges of media, low pressure rollers moved away from black squares.

* This causes an error stating that the pinch rollers are not aligned correctly. It seems that the machine does not want both high pressure and low pressure rollers in play at the same time, or possibly doesn't like that there are not enough black marks to align all low pressure rollers under. It is entirely possible that I am reading the instruction incorrectly in the PDF.

 

[mbasch]

Epson is the worst for this. We bought the SO7060 with silver to do wallpaper. Back then they were actually publishing a tolerance and it was claimed to be one of the best in the industry. We had a test file we sent and they printed and it lined up perfectlly, but we spent over a year trying to get the tolerance to less than 1/4" over 8'. We never even got anywhere close to the tolerance on their sample print. In my experience the Epson is the worst at it. We have been able to modify Mimaki's and HPs to really tight tolerances, but we have tried all our normal tricks with the epson and it varies as much as 1/2" over 8'

 

[unclebun]

You only use the metal high pressure rollers when doing multilayered prints because it has to roll the media back through the printer, and the regular rollers would smear you ink and get themselves contaminated. You never use both types of rollers at once. Whichever roller you use, it always has to be in one of the black blocks to work.

 

[FactorDesign]

Thanks Unclebun,
The diagram in the PDF makes it look like they use both. Now that I know the loading is done correctly, I can try to dial in any other issues!

 

[ColorCrest]

After reading the PDF manual, I'm seeing some differences in how I was told to load the media than how Epson says to do it, or their wording is slightly confusing.

Their manual reads:
<<Normal printing
Use low pressure rollers. Move the high pressure rollers right or left until they contact the ends.>>

They mean the ends of the track (lack of better word). IOW, to the extreme left and right and off of the media.

 

[ColorCrest]

In my experience the Epson is the worst at it. We have been able to modify Mimaki's and HPs to really tight tolerances, but we have tried all our normal tricks with the epson and it varies as much as 1/2" over 8'

Modify and tricks?

It's a common, simple measurement and setting in the RIP and very accurate.

 

[a77]

Epson is the worst for this. We bought the SO7060 with silver to do wallpaper. Back then they were actually publishing a tolerance and it was claimed to be one of the best in the industry. We had a test file we sent and they printed and it lined up perfectlly, but we spent over a year trying to get the tolerance to less than 1/4" over 8'. We never even got anywhere close to the tolerance on their sample print. In my experience the Epson is the worst at it. We have been able to modify Mimaki's and HPs to really tight tolerances, but we have tried all our normal tricks with the epson and it varies as much as 1/2" over 8'

Wow, 1/2" ?
That's amazingly bad. I haven't seen it that bad at all, always less than 1/8" for 10ft panels, but I'm going to start measuring more. When doing vinyl, we can make things line up. But I understand with wallpaper (which I don't do), you need your panels to be very consistent.

 

[ColorCrest]

The SureColor is definitely the winner in that competition.

Winner is which way, exactly?

 

[Solventinkjet]

Winner is which way, exactly?

The machine is a newer model first of all and the print head in the SureColor is the latest and greatest technology whereas the GS6000 is using the old style heads. As stated above, the main difference is that Epson designed and manufactured the SureColor series from scratch. The GS6000 was designed by Epson but manufactured by Mutoh which, as you can imaging, adds complications to the process. The GS6000 printers were simply Epson's entry into the solvent market and being their first machine, it had issue right out of the box. It's also way over engineered and more difficult to fix because it puts all of it's parts into assemblies. An example would be the dampers. On a Mutoh printer that uses the same heads as the GS6000 you just pull the dampers out and put new ones in. On the GS6000 you have to buy an assembly of 4 dampers that have this big other contraption attached to it and install that entire unit. It's stupid.

 

[ColorCrest]

I am told it isn't quite as nice as the GS6000 that sits next to it,

VanderJ,

Do you suppose the quote was made from the context of quality of print observations or ease-of-repair observations? IOW, nice print or nice for the repairman?

I think quality of print.