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Installation advice please

Discussion in 'Installation Equipment & Techniques' started by signgirl, Jan 30, 2020.

  1. signgirl

    signgirl Member

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    I have a 8ft x10ft sign ( two 4x8s stacked) to be produced soon in which the client will be installing. I was just told that the county will only allow them to use a one pole in the ground so they are building a field goal type structure. I have always used half inch MDO will no problem but always with 2 poles of course but was wondering if half inch alumilite would hold up to the winds beings it’s lighter weight. This will be double sided meaning there will be signs attached to both sides of poles. Thank you!
     
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  2. signgirl

    signgirl Member

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    My title may be misleading now that I have read it....I’m asking which type of material would be best
     
  3. Texas_Signmaker

    Texas_Signmaker Very Active Signmaker

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    What type of frame will they be making? 6mm ACM is a good replacement for MDO.
     
  4. Modern Ink Signs

    Modern Ink Signs Premium Subscriber

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    Single pole
    Customer doing the install
    What type of pole?
    Are they building a frame work?

    and the very big question is how good is your insurance?

    Sounds like a weird question right. Well when the customer does not do the install properly and the sign(s) fall off, pole breaks, etc and it damages something or hurts/kills someone. I’d be willing to bet any lawyer will come after you too.

    make sure you have them sign a waiver releasing you for all responsibility for the sign. Talk with your lawyer they should be able to help you


    in answer to you question. I’d use the ACM just on the merits that it is better for long term outdoor use
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. Dan360

    Dan360 Member

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    We use ACM for these, add 2x4 horizontal braces between the posts to attach the top and bottom of your panels to. We've only really had an issue when a washer was missed on a panel corner.

    One pole is a bit of a concern, what are they using to put this thing together? I've seen 2 4x4s snap from the wind load on a sign only slightly bigger than that.
     
  6. Texas_Signmaker

    Texas_Signmaker Very Active Signmaker

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    I HAVE to see a picture of that!
     
  7. Dan360

    Dan360 Member

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    It was a development sign in a large field. Wind storm took it out, there were others in the area in other fields on different angles that were fine.
     

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    • OMG / Wow! OMG / Wow! x 2
  8. Gino

    Gino Premium Subscriber

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    Before you buy or make anything, make sure an 8' x 10' sign will work in this incident, based upon engineer drawings. They're going to hafta put at least a 3' x 6' x 8' cement base in the ground with about a 12" pole going up with some sort of flange to go 5' out to each side. This is nothing, but look at any billboard and you'll see what I mean by a uni-pole setup. Those suckers are 3' in diameter, but they hold a lot more wind load and weight. You're playing with fire on this one. I'd use at least 10mm ACM with an all aluminum frame.

    In addition....... no signed waiver will get you out of a lawsuit. In fact, that brings attention to the fact you are doing something you feel won't work. That alone, makes you by far the most important person named in a lawsuit.​
     
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  9. Z SIGNS

    Z SIGNS Very Active Member

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    It's not what kind of panel you are going to use that's going to make this work or fail.
    It's going to be the what it's mounted to and how it's supported,framed and attached.
    Done properly you could even use banner material.Think about how billboards and flex faces work.
    Like others have said they are going to need a pretty hefty foundation,pole and framing.

    Don't worry about any lawsuits.Your not installing the the the sign.You are selling him a board with a sticker on it.
    Where it ends up and how it's installed has nothing to do with you.

    Guy builds a shed with plywood he bought from Homer Depot.Shed blows down and causes injury.
    Is the law going to go after Homer for selling him the plywood.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Like Like x 1
  10. signgirl

    signgirl Member

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    I really appreciate the replies! I’ll be taking a look at the frame they have built sometime this week and I’ll def look for the points listed.
     
  11. DrunknMonk

    DrunknMonk Member

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    I have an 8ft x10ft sign ( two 4x8s stacked)

    How do you get 8ft x 10ft from two 8' x 4' s ??

    be careful giving your customer tips on installation, if it fails they might try and blame you.
     
  12. signgirl

    signgirl Member

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    Sorry, that was a typo
     
  13. Krissy Louderback

    Krissy Louderback Member

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    My suggestion would be to tell them to hire an engineer to design the frame. I would imagine that sign needing a huge footer and a lot of bracing/framework.

    As far as the lawsuit goes, you aren't installing it. I don't see how you would be liable in any way. It's not your responsibility if your customer is picking it up and installing it themselves.

    Alumacore is nice and light and rigid, but the coroplast center will eventually dryrot and crumble which could cause issues with the installation over time. I'd go with DiBond/MaxMetal on that.
     
  14. kcollinsdesign

    kcollinsdesign Active Member

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    I basically agree with Gino here, but it really depends on how high the sign is. If it is 12' tall, then you could probably get by with two yards of concrete (2.5' x 6' x 4' deep, depending on frostline and soil type) and a 6" (.280) pipe (You'll also need substantial steel reinforcement in the concrete to keep it from twisting). Anything taller and the requirements increase logarithmically. 6mm ACM will work if properly braced. I would recommend working with an engineer both for indemnity and value engineering (which usually pays for the engineer).

    Note: do not follow my engineering advice. I am not an engineer.
     
  15. Gino

    Gino Premium Subscriber

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    Just apply for a varience and re-apply for a permit........ once ya have engineered drawings.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. visual800

    visual800 Very Active Member

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    First off no one is going to hold you liable for any damage since you did not install, that just makes no sense.
    MDO sucks I would build an aluminum frame and mount either 3mil acm on it OR possibly 10 mil coro depending on if this is a permanent sign or not. Keep it light!

    If this sign is temp why the hell does the county care how may poles they bury, that makes no sense at all

    I really think this is too much sign for one pole, hell one 4x8 needs at least 2 poles BUT this is not your issue
     
  17. ams

    ams Very Active Member

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    I wouldn't trust the client to install it.
     
  18. Gino

    Gino Premium Subscriber

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    I get a kick outta you guys who say the sign person, isn't responsible, with or without a waiver, just because you aren't gonna put it up.

    Ya have 9 variations on the approach to this project on what to do in just this little thread alone.

    You, being the professional, should stop someone in their tracks, when you know something is wrong with their equations or methods. Your codes and regulation department will tear this apart if it's installed wrong..... and you will be named. Why on earth would you make something that could hurt people if it topples over or falls apart ?? You know fullwell what their intentions are, what is happening and hiding behind a technicality of not physically doing the work is like omitting the truth which will hurt others. Would you make an electric sign for someone if you knew codes would not allow it where they wanna use it ??

    Do the right thing and have all the papers and permits signed off, before you do a thing for this customer. This isn't the kinda sign you guess about circumstances..... YOU MUST know what to do.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. unclebun

    unclebun Very Active Member

    I think somewhere there is a disconnect between the customer, the sign shop, and whoever the permitting authority is in this case. May advice to the OP is to get in front of things and talk to the permitting authority directly about what is/isn't allowed. For that matter, look up the sign ordinance to see what is legal or not for this type of sign.

    If the sign that blew down was an 8'x8' sign, it obviously happened because it was mounted on a single 4x4. That is seriously inadequate for the wind load. Using wood poles, for a single pole installation, even a 6x6 post is inadequate. The calculator I use doesn't go any bigger, and you'd likely have a hard time finding bigger poles long enough anyway.

    Therefore, if the permitting authority only allows a single pole for a developer sign (hard to believe), the purpose may be to limit the size of sign used for developer signs, and they would not allow an 8x8 sign.

    Talking directly to the sign permit department, whoever that may be, would be the best first step in dealing with this job.
     
  20. Signature Graphix

    Signature Graphix Wide Format Printing - Signage - Vehicle Wraps

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    Alumalite/Maxmetal is a great alternative. As long as it is fastened properly to the frame, you will be fine.
     
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