Installation Conundrum.....................

[Gino]

I couldn't find a more appropriate category, so here's hoping it works in this one.

We have a sign to make for a customer. We bid it out, got the bid and yesterday they changed one of the basic elements of the sign. The INSTALLATION.

It's a 'V' shape sign 96" tall by 144" wide on both sides of the 'V'. We were going to sink 3pcs 6" x 6" x 16' posts in 18" round x 60" deep holes buried in cement. We would then hang the stringers and some back supports and then the panels to the stringers.
Yesterday we were notified that the land is some EPA non-compliant deal and we can't make holes anywhere that deep. In fact, they'd like if we didn't dig at all. Asked if we could use a sled type of installation. They knew it would change the cost and they have no problem adding to the bottom-line cost. I said, you have practically 200 sq ft of sail power there and you don't wanna sink it in the ground ?? Are you frickin' nuts ??

Well, you're gonna hafta figure out a way.

Okay.


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Anyone ever have to do something like this ?? Really would appreciate any feedback on something as stoopid as this. Can't sink anything into the ground and it's got to be there for 2 to 3 years..... in the same place. It can't blow around and somebody go out and retrieve it every so often. Sheesh.............

Gino​

 

[Fred Weiss]

Would you be allowed to drive Re-bar into the ground and pour a concrete slab on top of the ground heavy enough to keep the sign from sliding or tipping over?

 

[Gino]

I'm not really sure. Nothing was concrete, no pun intended, but I got the impression it might be considered wetlands and by law, there are certain rules or EPA codes that cannot be breached.

I'll certainly give them that option. I'm no concrete person, but I would imagine if no footer is to be used, that slab would hafta be about 3' or 4' above ground. 3 of them would be over a cubic yard each which would entail about an extra $3,500 or so. That might be a little too much, but it's worth a try.

thanks.............​

 

[fresh]

I'd be inclined to hire an engineer. We avoid dangerous or ill-advised installs like the plague, but if one insists, I insist on using someone who knows more than I do about physics.

Good luck!

 

[Gino]

It could quite easily go that way. We're trying to save them money at this point and still do it in-house. If not, they have engineers who work for them routinely. Ideas and suggestions are cheap. We just hafta figure something out before we go that route, which would not be on us, but their own company and then we'd still provide the installation.

Gino​

 

[2B]

Does the installation have to be "clean & pretty" if not take 55 gallon drums and fill them full of concrete placing a sleeve in the middle of the barrel to slide the post into, make sure the sleeve sticks above the concrete.
once the poles are slid into the barrel sleeves bolt them in place through the sleeves and poles. paint the barrels the same color as the poles.

If one barrel per pole is not enough, do a cluster of barrels per pole.

No digging and should be enough weight for the wind drag.

 

[Marlene]

Does the installation have to be "clean & pretty" if not take 55 gallon drums and fill them full of concrete placing a sleeve in the middle of the barrel to slide the post into, make sure the sleeve sticks above the concrete.
once the poles are slid into the barrel sleeves bolt them in place through the sleeves and poles. paint the barrels the same color as the poles.

If one barrel per pole is not enough, do a cluster of barrels per pole.

No digging and should be enough weight for the wind drag.

this sounds like a great idea

 

[Billct2]

I think a triangular "sled" base that extends many feet (8'?)out and is made with substantial timbers (or maybe some scrap steel)
and with some bracing on the back of the sign to the base would work.

 

[rjssigns]

What about attaching a structure to a couple concrete highway barriers? Ten footers weigh 4000lbs. Can get new or used. Buy or rent.


I'll go lay down now...

 

[Gino]

2B, that's a great idea !! I will be suggesting that one right at the top.

I'm not sure of the aesthetics of the overall job, but this sounds like we could even create some skirting system for it.

I was gonna sink 16' posts into a 5' hole [in the ground], pour concrete and set the signs about 3.5' out, but with your idea, I can always use the same method they use for light standards and even run stringers from barrel to barrel.

Another idea was to build a sled type set up, with a huge foot pattern at each post like a 6' radius about a foot high, but put a fake floor going across at ground level and weight it down.

It's now starting to come together and I think we can do it without too much outside interference.

thanks.............
Gino​

 

[Salmoneye]

They make corkscrew like augers to hold down mobile homes and the like in high wind areas. They would penetrate the ground but not really disturb or dig up much if any earth.

 

[TimToad]

They make corkscrew like augers to hold down mobile homes and the like in high wind areas. They would penetrate the ground but not really disturb or dig up much if any earth.

I thought I read an earlier mention of a possible "wetland" scenario. Can you imagine putting together a whole heavy weighting system and have the damn thing sink!

Sorry Gino! I know this is a real dilemma and I'm making light of it, I just hope the install location is dry enough that whatever you come up with doesn't eventually sink into the muck. 2-3 years is a long time for something weighing thousands and thousands of pounds to fight gravity.

 

[signfab]

We are using these a lot these days but they're in Australia.

http://surefootfootings.com.au/

 

[graphicwarning]

These are becoming quite popular around here... and though they aren't made specifically for signs, there are signs going up using them when there are challenging install restrictions or conditions...

http://www.technometalpost.com/en/home/

 

[mfatty500]

What about attaching a structure to a couple concrete highway barriers? Ten footers weigh 4000lbs. Can get new or used. Buy or rent.


I'll go lay down now...

I'm with you on this one,

 

[crystalcoastgraphics]

Is it a digging issue? Or nothing in the ground issue? If it is just a digging issue, you can get the poles driven in. I had some 6x6's driven in with a mini kubota track hoe. Has the vibrating plate on it. Just cut a point on them with the chainsaw, and drive right in. It only took about a minute to drive one in about 5-6 feet.

 

[Gino]

Just got off the phone with my contact. It's practically flat ground. It's wet to marshy and they don't want any digging in the area, due to EPA regulations. I don't get that. They're eventually building a huge center here. There going to hafta put stuff into the ground, cause around here, building on stilts just ain't gonna happen. I think the landowner is just being overly cautious and using this EPA thing as an excuse. He probably thought the installation would be cheaper not digging such big holes, when it actually becomes more expensive to make things more difficult.

They're going to have a meeting on Friday and he said he'll get back to us Monday or Tuesday. Well, with Christmas around the corner, I might just put it off til next year )))

If I hear anything, I'll be sure to let you all know.


The suggestions were beautiful and quick. Thank you all very much for your input. It has helped tremendously.

Gino​

 

[Tim4]

It sounds like it may be in a flood plain. Yeah, those are federally regulated. Some jurisdictions will allow small projects, such as a flag pole. Beyond that, the Army Corp of Engineers will often need to sign off.

 

[Gino]

It sounds like it may be in a flood plain. Yeah, those are federally regulated. Some jurisdictions will allow small projects, such as a flag pole. Beyond that, the Army Corp of Engineers will often need to sign off.

The closest river to this location is about 1.5 miles away. It's well above the flood plain, by literally many many feet. It's not even in a 500 year flood plain, let alone a 100 year plan. When it rains, this area does not flood or wash out. It's just a little spongy under your feet, which could be a small underground spring to nothing at all. I've seen fields like this, and other areas and there is just no real problem I can see. I just think the owner/builder just wanted to get us to lower our price by asking for something which didn't require digging deep holes. As a matter of fact, we've had a rather wet Spring, Summer, Autumn and it's been raining for the last three weeks, almost non-stop. Like I said, the guy is probably just trying to scare us into lowering our numbers.

That doesn't work. Not with me, anyway.
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[Rocco G]

Sounds like a spread footer is called for. A massive concrete form sitting on the ground full of rebar, with expensive framing, etc. it all has to be much bigger than if in the ground since you don't have earth pressure to help the footing stay in place.

Even if you find some easier alternative I would 1,000% get it approved by an engineer.