letterman7
New Member
Fred, if this isn't in the right area, feel free to move.
Ok, I need some insight, opinions, whatever. My local township here has adopted the International Building Code into their ordinance, which apparently also affects how signs are to be permitted as there is a sub section in the IBC referring to signage. But.. in the first section of the IBC I already see a discrepancy in their terminology which would directly affect any city/township/municipality that adopts this code. It reads, in part:
Section H102 Definitions:
Display Sign: The area made available by the sign structure for the purpose of displaying the advertising message.
Ground Sign: A billboard or similar type of sign which is supported by one or more uprights, poles or braces in or upon the ground other than a combination sign or pole sign, as defined by this code.
Combination Sign: A sign incorporating any combination of the features of pole, projecting and roof signs.
Pole Sign: A sign wholly supported by a sign structure in the ground.
Section H105 Design and Construction
105.1 General Requirements: Signs shall be designed and constructed to comply with the provisions of this code for use of materials, loads and stresses.
105.3 Wind Load: Signs shall be designed and constructed to withstand wind pressure as provided for in chapter 16.
105.5 Working Stresses: In outdoor advertising display signs, the allowable working stresses shall conform to the requirements of chapter 16.
Sounds reasonable, right, if you're doing a large pylon marquee or something similar? I mean, you would want to have an engineer for the foundation, etc.. but here's the thing, and maybe I'm too close to it or simply just not reading it correctly: The definition of a "ground sign" is certainly not correct as that definition encompasses "pole sign". Isn't the general nomenclature of a ground sign one that is fully on the ground, i.e. a Peachtree monument style? Yes, I know there are variables, including the towering pylons that are fully enclosed.
But here's what I'm running into: I have a job submitted that is using two small Peachtree monuments. According to the IBC, I need to spec out engineer drawings with wind loads, stresses, etc. to satisfy the township engineer. Being a one man shop and not building or installing pylons or other structures that would obviously require an engineer for footers, I don't have the resources to be sending to engineers to do all that - and the only reason I'm being required to do that is because of the initial definition of a ground sign and resulting H105 requirements.
I'm rambling a bit as I did meet with the township engineer and the codes official today and they agree that yes, the code is ridiculous but their hands are tied legally. I did not notice the description discrepancy until later today when I reviewed the IBC code, or I would have brought it up then. Anyway, my statement to them was basically if I was to install a 4x8 mdo sales sign that stands 3' off the ground, I need to secure engineer drawings etc.. The answer was yes, and basically to cover the municipalities butt if something happened.
So.. what are everyone's thoughts on the IBC definitions and has anyone had to deal with this ridiculousness on smaller projects? Has anyone found any kind of a loophole for small project signs that shouldn't involve engineers?
Rick
Ok, I need some insight, opinions, whatever. My local township here has adopted the International Building Code into their ordinance, which apparently also affects how signs are to be permitted as there is a sub section in the IBC referring to signage. But.. in the first section of the IBC I already see a discrepancy in their terminology which would directly affect any city/township/municipality that adopts this code. It reads, in part:
Section H102 Definitions:
Display Sign: The area made available by the sign structure for the purpose of displaying the advertising message.
Ground Sign: A billboard or similar type of sign which is supported by one or more uprights, poles or braces in or upon the ground other than a combination sign or pole sign, as defined by this code.
Combination Sign: A sign incorporating any combination of the features of pole, projecting and roof signs.
Pole Sign: A sign wholly supported by a sign structure in the ground.
Section H105 Design and Construction
105.1 General Requirements: Signs shall be designed and constructed to comply with the provisions of this code for use of materials, loads and stresses.
105.3 Wind Load: Signs shall be designed and constructed to withstand wind pressure as provided for in chapter 16.
105.5 Working Stresses: In outdoor advertising display signs, the allowable working stresses shall conform to the requirements of chapter 16.
Sounds reasonable, right, if you're doing a large pylon marquee or something similar? I mean, you would want to have an engineer for the foundation, etc.. but here's the thing, and maybe I'm too close to it or simply just not reading it correctly: The definition of a "ground sign" is certainly not correct as that definition encompasses "pole sign". Isn't the general nomenclature of a ground sign one that is fully on the ground, i.e. a Peachtree monument style? Yes, I know there are variables, including the towering pylons that are fully enclosed.
But here's what I'm running into: I have a job submitted that is using two small Peachtree monuments. According to the IBC, I need to spec out engineer drawings with wind loads, stresses, etc. to satisfy the township engineer. Being a one man shop and not building or installing pylons or other structures that would obviously require an engineer for footers, I don't have the resources to be sending to engineers to do all that - and the only reason I'm being required to do that is because of the initial definition of a ground sign and resulting H105 requirements.
I'm rambling a bit as I did meet with the township engineer and the codes official today and they agree that yes, the code is ridiculous but their hands are tied legally. I did not notice the description discrepancy until later today when I reviewed the IBC code, or I would have brought it up then. Anyway, my statement to them was basically if I was to install a 4x8 mdo sales sign that stands 3' off the ground, I need to secure engineer drawings etc.. The answer was yes, and basically to cover the municipalities butt if something happened.
So.. what are everyone's thoughts on the IBC definitions and has anyone had to deal with this ridiculousness on smaller projects? Has anyone found any kind of a loophole for small project signs that shouldn't involve engineers?
Rick
