Is this normal.................. ??

[Gino]

Okay, so we're doing a sign for this local guy who is moving his office from the Reading area to what is called Wyomissing, which is a neighboring borough. He's moving about 2 miles, if that.

I took a picture of the site before giving any quotes, so I could do a super imposed mock up for the guy.... and the borough for permitting.

Got the deposit and everything was finished for the guy and then we were supposed to start the sign. I asked him if he had gotten the permit, which shouldn't have been a problem since the 2 4" x 4" posts from the prior tenant were still in the ground. He said he'd do it right away. The next day, we got a frantic e-mail stating that the borough codes guy wants to see engineer drawings, wind loads and a guarantee the sign will hold up to 90 mph winds at 5 second intervals. I told him to relax, this is just a 3' x 4' little sign, 2 feet off the ground going into existing posts. If the posts had passed the last inspection, they should still pass, since the sign is no bigger than the old sign.

Nope. The borough now wants his first born, dental impressions and an engineers written report.

I really can't believe this, since it's not electrical, not at all big [less than 10 sq ft] and only 2 foot off the ground. I told him the posts will break off before the sign gives way.

All this extra crap is gonna cost two-three times as much as the sign, if not more. Without digging the posts completely out, how can we tell how deep they are ?? I've never heard of such nonsense.

I guess just a little rant about how pathetic these city/borough workers are becoming.
​

 

[player]

If there was a sign there then it should be grandfathered?

Ask to see the bylaw and perhaps there is a clause about not having to engineer a lawn sign.

 

[J Hill Designs]

here I only need engi specs if over 6'

replacing a panel? I wouldnt have even permitted it

 

[Gino]

I already had mentioned the Grandfathered in business. The borough says if the old sign met all specifications and permit requirements of the 2009 bylaws, they will consider it, but I still have to know how deep the posts are.



As for not permitting...... ya don't do that kinda sh!t around these parts if you wanna keep on working. One bad report and they won't let you do any more work in their area for anybody, no way.... no how.

 

[Billct2]

There are a few towns around here that require an engineered/wind load drawing for ANY sign. And a permit for ANY change, even relettering an existing panel.
I chalk it up to a combination of "It's not my job" and lawsuit paranoia. Used to be a town engineer could look at a drawing and judge whether it was adequate or not. I can see the need on larger/higher signs, but a 2'x8' wall sign?

 

[signcrafters london]

Can't you just make up a number for how deep the posts are in the ground? It's not like they are going to dig them up to verify. And that borough is appropriately named, as it is missing a number of common sense qualities.

 

[fresh]

A few weeks ago a client asked me to make him a sign for his new building. He was going to pick it up and install it. I never went to the site, I don't care about the site, he gave me the size and artwork, etc. etc. etc. So anyway, he orders a 3x10 polymetal sign with vinyl graphics. A couple of days later, I get a message from him that he needs something for the permit. This sign was super cheap, so I'm not really interested in spending too much time drawing something up. Plus, I really don't think we have anything to do with it in the first place. I resend the proof with the dimensions and materials, because that is typically sufficient.

After that, we play phone tag a few times, and he says he needs us to provide him with "seal" drawings. ?? I have no idea what he is talking about and suggest he go to the zoning office and ask them to show him a copy of what they want. He has the town clerk call me and explain that they need sealed engineer drawings indicating all the things you'd expect them to. She was very friendly and understanding when I explained that 1. I was not installing the sign and didn't know how or where they planned to put it, 2. I'm pretty sure there is no wind load on a 3mm-thick -flush-to-the-building sign. 3. This sign was WAY too inexpensive for me to be dealing with their problems. She a bit confused at first, but I think they figured it out.

I completely understand the need for permits, but some towns are out of their minds. Gino is talking about a sign that comparable to a mailbox. Are we going to need engineer drawings to put up a mailbox next?

 

[Gino]

Good idea, but really..... I don't operate that way.

 

[copythat]

Bam!

Gino you did everything right!

Then an idiot savant :a person who is highly knowledgeable about one subject but knows little about anything else. Comes along and screws up a perfectly easy order.

All you can do is throw your hands up.



Sign Up!

 

[JoeBoomer]

"You're better off asking for forgiveness than permission"

Ahhh.. the wonderful world of sign permits. Some of these towns are f'in crazy. We have a town by us with a size limit of 10 sq. ft. for commercial real-estate signs!

Anyway, I used to tell my customers "You're better off asking for forgiveness than permission" for stuff like that. Then I would have them sign the estimate stating that permits were there problem and that we weren't responsible. This was especially true for signs we were just replacing as opposed to breaking ground for new posts, etc.



However, most commercial real-estate companies had us do permitting, so we would typically follow the books on those.

Go Team!

 

[TammieH]

I've seen guys with probes before, you might be able to make your own, a sharpened cold steel with a T-handle, push it in the ground at an angle at various points to try and find the bottom of the post.

 

[NateF]

I've seen guys with probes before, you might be able to make your own, a sharpened cold steel with a T-handle, push it in the ground at an angle at various points to try and find the bottom of the post.

I'm guessing that you've never tried to stick things in the ground in PA. I grew up in MI, where you could dig a post hole or trench a water line with little to no effort. PA is a whole different story. We have a little bit of dirt to go with a whole lot of rocks. Nothing here digs easy!:Big Laugh

 

[visual800]

Thats why we install on weekends, screw them , it aint like they are making things easy. I dont have time for all that red tape

 

[Gino]

Well, after 40 some years of doing this stuff, I can't really fall back on week end warrior installations or asking for forgiveness. By now, I should know this crap, or at least know when to ask questions. Being a professional brings on certain responsibilities and that's where I stand. When these a$$wipes ask for the ridiculous, I will stand up to them.... and usually beat them back down to earth.

So, it's very hard to say to a client..... well, here's your sign..... good luck. You didn't ask enough questions, so it's on you. Again, as I've said since I've been on this forum.... we must educate the customer and that doesn't only pertain to why our signs are a better deal than my competitors, but we are in the business of signs..... and if someone doesn't ask enough or the right questions, that doesn't give me a way out to dodge a bullet, just because it's inconvenient. In this case, I think the codes officer is being a jerk. I will go to bat for my customer and not charge him a thing. Like here, I enjoy confrontation and when I win, that's my pay. Again, getting close to retiring or possibly slowing down, I can take this time to get better deals for my customers. Perhaps some of you aren't there, yet, but someday, you'll want to look back and say..... well, I did it...... and I didn't hurt anyone along the path.

 

[J Hill Designs]

did the town happen to say "wyomissing your permit"

Can't you just make up a number for how deep the posts are in the ground? It's not like they are going to dig them up to verify. And that borough is appropriately named, as it is missing a number of common sense qualities.