It happened again

[slappy]

Had a customer i did truck lettering, business cards and t-shirts for take his business card and shirt to an embroidery shop for shirts. I'm to add more lettering to his truck tomorrow, and he doesn't know that i'm aware he sent my artwork out for an embroidery file. He paid $50 for the file. I'm pissed. Luckily, my friends dad has an embroidery machine he is loaning me to see if i wanna purchase it. The mom was digging it out this weekend for me, but i haven't got it yet. The "dad" only has used it a few times and can't figure out the software. Guess i can have it a few months to see if i can learn it, and i'm sure i can.... i learned everything else Anyways, any suggestions for the situation i'm about to be in

How would you handle it??

 

[HaroldDesign]

When I do artwork and they want the file, I charge accordingly knowing that it is now their art to do with whatever they choose. I would let it go as a live and learn scenario.

 

[Jillbeans]

He paid $50 to you for the file or $50 to the embroidery company?
Suggestions are to charge for a logo design when you get a customer like that.
That way who cares who makes it, as long as you got paid originally.
We've all made that mistake, I'm sure.
But I am also sure that you could learn to use an embroidery machine.
Love.....Jill

 

[jscarl]

Drop a hint that you are learning embroidery and if he needs some work done, just let you know. That way no hard feelings either way.

 

[scarface]

I was talking with a customer who is a sheriff and he told me since i charge him a artwork fee for his other business files he has the rights to get it without additional charges. I beg to differ but not 100% sure

 

[briankb]

Artwork Fee doesn't mean "royalty free license". I love it when cops become lawyers or try to intimidate because they are in law enforcement. If he is a deputy he may have had some rudimentary legal training related to his field but I doubt he knows enough to back up his copyright/trademark/licensing talk.

We learned this lesson many years ago. Put your "license" or "terms" on the proof and make them sign it before sending the file off or making a sign. Thanks to the internet and cheapo sign makers. Every customer thinks the design is free and can be reused as much as possible without asking. I just had a guy take a proof image (med. size jpg) we did for a banner design and use it on his website and he made a t-shirt mockup. Then argued with me that it was his because we took the crap logo he provided and made it better. And that I should "know where he's going with this...".

 

[Patrick46]

Yep...I learned this one the hard way as well.

Get this...I've had 4 DIFFERENT customers take photos of hand lettered trucks that I had done for each of them, down to the 'quickie vinyl shop' in town, and had Edge prints of MY HAND LETTERED WORK done on vinyl, that they slapped on their new trucks!!! So now, they have my hand done work on their new trucks...without the expense!

So what am I gonna do....it's too late to go back after them.

Well...not no more BABY!!!

Now, they ALL sign a form that explains that even though this is a simple truck lettering job (to them), that this is MY DESIGN that I OWN! I am done with this crap!!! Use it, and you're gonna find yourself in court...and will LOSE!

 

[Mosh]

Sell them the logo and it is thiers to do as they please. They don't want to pay, I don't send it, simple.

 

[StopSignGraphics]

When I have a new customer I try to find out all the things that they want: banners, business cards, t-shirts, etc... Anything I don't produce in house I can subcontract out to various vendors that I work with. I then offer a package price for all of it to the customer.

If for some reason they want someone else to handle part of the order, I can find out up front and address use of the art. However most customers decide to let me handle it rather than paying additional fees for the use of the art. The important thing is that this all brought up at the initial meeting.


~Chris

 

[Extreme Graffix]

I had this issue a few times. Since ebay sells inexpensive cutters.People in my area started buying them and instantly became a sign shop.Well then they realized it took ability to design and install. so they started having the people they were doing work for go around to different shop getting things designed. Then was giving a lame excuse i am not ready for it so can u put it on a disc for me that way i will have it when i am ready. I don't want it to get lost. Well needless to say after i seen a few of my designs going around.After looking in to it and confronting the people face to face. I always got well my brothers friend bought a cutter and was just trying it out. SORRY. Now since i started charging for designs i dont have that issue anymore.There are some cheap people out there.

 

[slappy]

I did simple door lettering on a crew cab. The business name, with a gradiant fill and outline/drop shadow and a piece of modified clipart ( nothing really hard, just a bug and a crosshair. I put the same on the business cards and when i had the t-shirts done, i had the clipart on it also.
After he dropped it off today, he told me he would buy the rights to it. I guess he gave it to the phonebook people also and for a website.

What should i charge to burn them on a disk and what all files should be included.

(Jill, the embroidery shop charged him the $50)
(JSCarl, i told him i'm getting the machine... he looked a little disappointed) Must have order the shirts already. I gave him a heck of a deal on the layout on the full color/ stock photo business cards i did for him cause i was just learning photoshop finally.

Oh well, live and learn i guess. I'm slowly getting to where i wanna be. I just gotta redo my work orders and make some policy signs.....

 

[G-Artist]

In the "old" days most screen print shops would charge a set-up or screen making fee. Today most shops already include that in the quote. But back then the client knew he didn't "own" the screen. The best he could hope for was that you'd warehouse the screen for a year. Even if you reclaimed it, you wouldn't charge a new fee for a reorder within a reasonable time period as you kept the filmwork.

Ditto for art. The client has to know nothing can be produced w/o art. Two choices. He supplies it
to your specs and you do nothing except cut/print. Or you do it and get paid to do so.

If the client wants OWNERSHIP of the art then that would be a separate fee PLUS a written assignment of copyright.

Where it gets tricky is when a customer comes in with art and you alter or add to it.

That is known as a derivative.

Let's hope that:
1. the customer actually owns the "art."
2. and to be safe, you have him or her sign a hold-harmless agreement which includes swearing/attesting
to ownership.

The law says this (about derivatives):

"The copyright in a compilation or derivative work extends only to the material contributed
by the author of such work, as distinguished from the preexisting material employed in the work,
and does not imply any exclusive right in the preexisting material. The copyright in such work is
independent of, and does not affect or enlarge the scope, duration, ownership, or subsistence
of, any copyright protection in the preexisting material."

So, IMHO, it is just best to charge a "clean-up" fee and let the client know it is his to do with what he
likes. Charge accordingly.

 

[threads1]

If a customer wants to use a stock design with lettering added we charge a "set-up" fee. It remains our compulated property that we won't release. If they take it somewhere else to be copied, so be it. It's not worth the hassle to fight it.

If they bring in thier own artwork to be digitized for embroidery we charge them for the digitizing but the program is thiers to take away if they want to.

Slapakiss...what brand of machine are you getting?

 

[Pat Whatley]

Charge for the artwork up front and let them do with it as they wish. The whole holding their artwork hostage thing is ridiculous.

 

[weaselboogie]

Charge for the artwork up front and let them do with it as they wish. The whole holding their artwork hostage thing is ridiculous.

Agreed. If you're doing a logo-ish design... charge for a logo design. I try and be upfront with every customer. Explain that with this design they will completely own it and may do with whatever they wish... letterhead, pop display, any identity and are encouraged to! Explain briefly the importance of branding and repetition and they may understand and agree why they should be more than happy to pay for and use the crap out of their logo.

 

[ddarlak]

The whole holding their artwork hostage thing is ridiculous.

:U Rock:

 

[Marlene]

don't leave it up to your customer to know the ins and outs of artwork. when you quote a job, make it clear on the quote that the design is for..... use only and any other use is prohibited. then put in a line item with the cost for the art on a disk. I also include that the disk can be used for ads, tee-shirts etc, so they get the idea. I do this and since I have, things have been much easier as the customer knows right up front what to expect when it comes to their artwork.

 

[slappy]

well... this is how i was brought up. By learning from the "copywrite" police. Remember, i'm self taught and signs101 taught. I'm not holding it ransom, but i'm tired of charging a set up fee for basic truck layouts and business cards only to find them copied onto a website, phone book ads and now embroidery.

I just would like to know what to charge to give him a cd, what to include on it. I feel i shouldn't give the business card layout or the t-shirt layout.


Threads1, i'm not sure of the name of the equipment yet.

 

[binki]

...my friends dad has an embroidery machine he is loaning me to see if i wanna purchase it. ... The "dad" only has used it a few times and can't figure out the software. Guess i can have it a few months to see if i can learn it, and I'm sure i can....

There are 2 aspects to embroidery. The machine and the digitizing. The machine is easy, just a ball of moving parts. Learn that aspect first. While learning, send your digitizing out.

The software that comes with these machines is basic. Unless they purchased the upgrades you will not be able to do much other than lettering or simple edits to existing files. The top embroidery software goes for $15K (down from $30K a few years ago) and most competitive packages are in the $10K range. You can get a few packages for under $1000 that are pretty good.

The perceived value of embroidered garments is much higher than printed T's and the dollar volume is much higher for the same markup. Polo's run from $5 to $50 wholesale and you can sell those same polo's starting at $25 and go up from there.

Good luck with it.

 

[G-Artist]

Errrr...not to be picky but "copywrite" [sic] is that authors do when writing ads.

Copyright (as in the 'right' to own and use) is what the correct term is.

If you are tired of being taken advantage of then some signage at your front counter
covering the same will help as does boiler plate printed on ALL invoices. Using a light
watermark when sending proofs via a PDF is also wise.

Doing all that isn't going to stop idiocy nor outright piracy. All that effort is like locking your
doors, it keeps the honest folks honest.