It's not just the newbies for me...

[Jeff]

Like most everyone, I read some of the posts where the newbie, wannabe, hobbyist or whatever you want to call them, gets beat up for asking what seems to be stupid or disrespectful (to sign veterans) questions. Although I too find them irritating, I equally find the lack of knowledge with regard to "simple" rules of layout, design and color use executed by "veteran" sign people very irritating.

I think I am very fortunate to have entered the world of sign work while it was still "sign painting". As far back as I can remember, I sat in class at school and doodled. (instead of learning what the teachers wanted me to) When I was 15-16 years old my dad (who had dabbled with sign painting) bought me some brushes / One Shot and showed me what he knew. I continued to self-teach the art of sign painting through high school. Then I eventually ended up working for a "real" sign company. Most of what I think are the essentials of needed knowledge to produce quality sign work was presented to me while working (as an apprentice) at Avery Sign Co. (Thank you Glenn)

The best advice I ever received came from another mentor of mine Roger Foss (Foss Signs). He suggested I look at sign work that appealed to me, pick out three or so sign painters who's lettering style I liked (back then you could readily identify specific sign painters by their style or techniques) and combine their style along with my own to produce the look I liked. That process would be nearly impossible in today's sign world!

It is VERY evident that many of today's sign makers either don't know or don't care about the very basics of proper/legible lettering techniques. Again, just for the record, I was not born with God's gift of sign knowledge. I was however apparently born with the desire and passion to continue to hone my skills and strive to produce the best product (layout & design) I can. I rather proudly have in my portfolio photos of some of my early work. (that was atrocious I might add) I know...what's a portfolio?

The lack of simple skills (kerning, not stretching copy, poor color choices and over all bad layouts) are not just produced by newbie know nothings. The ones that tear me up are the veteran "sign" people in my area that have been at this for years and still don't understand K ER NIN G !! ! !! They continue to make bad color choices time and time again, never seeming to realize they didn't work the last fifty times they used them.

In fairness, I have also meet far to many graphic art graduates that clearly have not been educated very well in the basic skills.

Our local high school has a printer that, among other things, they produce posters and such for school events with. The "teacher" of that class knows nothing about the basics. I have offered FREE of charge to help teach/implement a simple/basic lesson for layout, use of color and such. To date there is no interest.

I have nothing against anyone entering the sign business. I agree that virtually no one has the skills to just purchase the equipment and start producing tasteful, professional, quality sign work. Unfortunately the suggestion by many here to work as an apprentice is not always the answer either. As stated above many many "veteran" sign people don't know what the hell they are doing either.

I don't have the fix-all answer either, I just know that the newbies are not the only problem/cause for the continued deterioration of the ART of sign making. However it is WAY to easy to buy the equipment that does ALL the work today. Way back, you had to at least work at learning to "push a brush"...not that there wasn't "hacks" then too.

That does it for today's rant...I feel better now!

 

[Jillbeans]

I feel better for having read it, too.

You can never stop learning, no matter your stage in this craft (well it used to be a craft)
I see so many people who never even think about kerning, who use two scripts in the same layout etc. Not just newbs.

I see cluttered, busy layouts. Clashing colors. Shadows which have more impact than the message. Squishing or stretching fonts...etc etc etc
People who get lazy and rely on some computer effect to try and save a poor design.
And yes, a lot of it from people who have been at this for years and should know better.

I wish I didn't care so much.
Love....Jill

 

[Gino]

Very well written and you can tell by someone who cares and cherishes their trade.

When entering the sign world, I found some really bad sign painters and some very good ones. The good ones are the ones I tried to emulate and get additional training. I saw mistakes made and how to correct them without throwing the shocard away or starting over. I saw tricks of the trade which today, are not known. Knowing the basics is the only way you could go further in any shop back in those days. Today, just shell out more greenbacks and you'll get even bigger orders. I see all kinds of signs today, made by the so-called professionals that make me cringe, but I wonder if the customer made them do it.... or it was done outta stoopidness. Anyway, while the newbies don't have a clue, the professionals should be at least honing their skills all the time. It's quite evident that some of these seasoned or veterans of the trade, don't have a clue that they're putting out crap, but then..... that's why we have lousy lawyers, doctors, politicians and bad kids. No one cares much about anything anymore, so why worry about bad kerning or a bad color combo ?? It's called progress, huh ??

 

[d fleming]

It takes more than a high thread count to be a journeyman at your trade.

 

[TammieH]

One old sign painter, Bob Fee, told me when I just started out

"Never judge another's work to harshly, because there will be a day that you produce something that you are less than proud of." And you also do not know what stage they are in, in their career, as far as lettering.

I was fortunate enough to meet this old gentleman, he was extremely kind, and very willing to work with a youngster out of high school.



We are the product of everyone we meet in life, cherish the ones that have provided a positive influence!

 

[GaSouthpaw]

Bravo.

 

[SignManiac]

I've been preaching your exact sentiments to the choir for the major part of my sign career. I wasn't fortunate enough to ever work for a sign company or go to school for it, but I did have a passion to be the best at it that I could be. Forty years later and not a single day goes by that I don't learn something new, try something new, or find a better way or better design in everything I create. My goal these days is to personally rid the planet of ugly signs. I feel shame for our profession today as signs have become a visual blight on the world we live in. I guestimate that maybe 20% of today sign companies have any clue about proper sign design, layout, use of color, fonts or appropriate image use. The other 80% were never taught, never bothered to learn, or even care. Sticking letters on stuff is about the limit of their creativity.

I personally have tried to encourage by example of my work what the added value is when you can design and produce a beautiful sign. There is financial gain to be had in selling nice work. I moved to Florida from New York and was flat out told I could not sell nice work here and that Florida people were too cheap and wouldn't pay more than $150.00 for a 4X8. Well I continually prove them wrong and that's going on twenty two years here now. Many of those shops have come and gone yet I'm still here designing and selling nice signs.

I've given up preaching. Just going to keep on doing my thing and enjoy creating awesome signs! I do it for my own pleasure...

 

[Jeff]

A few follow up thoughts;

I don't mean to imply everything I do is a work of art. I almost never hand letter, pinstripe or airbrush anything these days. I do mostly cut vinyl and I do out source printing. The simplest of signs should still be executed properly.

I (to often) have to reproduce "crappy" customer art/files. I try to improve it when possible.

There are books available that teach the simple basics that are needed to help anyone better their skills with things such as path of vision, optical centers, focus, color and layout. There are no excuses for anyone to not be able to learn these skills...creativity may be a whole different subject.

Raise your hand if you find yourself kerning the simplest of things: Text on a printed envelope as an example.

Jill; I too care to much....

 

[Trip59]

A 'newbie's perspective...

When I joined and started posting, I was nothing but enthusiastic, just bought a shop in a box from eBay, not knowing my arse from a hole in the ground. I've worked in the design field for years, and also teach design, but of the web variety, and more development than design. Several warm welcomes and a lot of folks offering advice when I posted dubious questions, but a few rather critical/insulting. Now, this forum is a piece of cake compared to some other professional forums I participate in (you wanna see harsh, go pop over to Practical Machinist (sorry if that violates any policies referencing it) THOSE guys can make some of the harshness here seem like a little fuzzy bunny. I hung in there too and worked my way to a point of mutual respect, still an amateur, but a respected one.

Fast forward from last July when I started; bought a bunch of books I see recommended here, read just about every related post here, hundreds of hours on video sites and we're at a point now where we are undergoing a $20k expansion project to set up a new section of shop, have purchased a few production level machines (my USCutter sits behind me as a backup/reminder, it's not a base model but it is a stepper machine) and we're looking at a few more stages over the next year.

I'm a disabled vet, I work three jobs (legitimate corporate e-commute gigs) from home, but Mosh's "great, another part timer from home" still hangs in my mind as a note to not be that guy. We have our fed tax stuff in order, all applicable state registration and licensing, insurance, etc. do not do copyrighted work, price actually a bit higher than some local shops, and today I'm interviewing two designers. We're only ever planning to run from our property, with luck a 6-800sf outbuilding will be going up next spring to augment the existing space and provide room for a CNC table and if I can get up to speed on the licensing/certification requirements, a neon fabrication area. (I've worked with glass for years, so it's the electrical side I need to amp up on).

I have to wonder though, as I read some of the posts, how many folks are more sensitive than I am and come away with a bad taste and stunting of their progress or completely abandon a good path due to things they're told. How many of those could be the next Antonelli or Sawatzky, but were outright discouraged. No one walks into an industry knowing everything about it, EVERYONE started somewhere. For me, it was a 'sticker machine' to run some paint masks cor a custom RoadKing build that lead to what I hope will be a full time family run business in a few years. I mean full time as in I can drop one or two of my jobs, not the hours, as I'm already running 40+ hours a week most weeks trying to keep up.

Ok, that said, some of the posts are indeed outright hilarious and the responses can make for an entertaining lunch break

 

[Trip59]

A few follow up thoughts;

I don't mean to imply everything I do is a work of art. I almost never hand letter, pinstripe or airbrush anything these days. I do mostly cut vinyl and I do out source printing. The simplest of signs should still be executed properly.

I (to often) have to reproduce "crappy" customer art/files. I try to improve it when possible.

There are books available that teach the simple basics that are needed to help anyone better their skills with things such as path of vision, optical centers, focus, color and layout. There are no excuses for anyone to not be able to learn these skills...creativity may be a whole different subject.

Raise your hand if you find yourself kerning the simplest of things: Text on a printed envelope as an example.

Jill; I too care to much....

Nothing leaves without at least one kerning adjustment... pet peeve and bugs me more than any other simple design mistake when I see it.

Regarding crappy files/artwork, I gave up on most of the unwinnable battles years ago, "beauty is in the eye of the cardholder"

 

[Billct2]

Lots of great thoughts here.
I was brought into the trade by an old school sign apinter and went to sign school for a year. Then worked in several shops over many years and struggled, struggled struggled to master the brush and the design.
There were always hacks. And obvious amatuers making their own signs never bothered me. Like the OP it's the "professionals" doing crap work that is the most offensive.
The thing that annoys me the most these days are the very expensive bill boards that I can't read. I would think someone spending $3-5k a month would want their sign to work.
@Trip I appreciate your perspective but I disagree with this...

how many folks are more sensitive than I am and come away with a bad taste and stunting of their progress or completely abandon a good path due to things they're told. How many of those could be the next Antonelli or Sawatzky, but were outright discouraged

Anyone who really wants to make it in this or any other trade needs to overcome way more discouragement that getting dissed on a web forum. I got a lot of "critiques" along the way and spent many long hours doing something over and over to get it right, those easily discouraged should not be in anything like the sign business.

 

[Trip59]

Lots of great thoughts here.
I was brought into the trade by an old school sign apinter and went to sign school for a year. Then worked in several shops over many years and struggled, struggled struggled to master the brush and the design.
There were always hacks. And obvious amatuers making their own signs never bothered me. Like the OP it's the "professionals" doing crap work that is the most offensive.
The thing that annoys me the most these days are the very expensive bill boards that I can't read. I would think someone spending $3-5k a month would want their sign to work.
@Trip I appreciate your perspective but I disagree with this...
Anyone who really wants to make it in this or any other trade needs to overcome way more discouragement that getting dissed on a web forum. I got a lot of "critiques" along the way and spent many long hours doing something over and over to get it right, those easily discouraged should not be in anything like the sign business.

Very valid point Bill, and yes, tough skin is needed and many of the folks catching most of it probably wouldn't reach that level even with handholding and talking about their feelings over milk and cookies, but as a college professor teaching web design and development (not going to say where, but legitimate, fully accredited institutions not degree mills as some would assume) I've come across half a dozen students in the last few years who were ready to abandon things after bad grades and hard critiques, who after a couple of conversations and support, turned into professionals who I would be happy to hire, some I would hire, if I could afford, and one is now a major player in one area of the industry making lots of waves and innovation. The start is a very sensitive time, often with little to no confidence. Not saying it's everyone, but what are the chances of half a dozen of those folks coming and going through here in the last decade?

 

[Gino]

Very valid point Bill, and yes, tough skin is needed and many of the folks catching most of it probably wouldn't reach that level even with handholding and talking about their feelings over milk and cookies, but as a college professor teaching web design and development (not going to say where, but legitimate, fully accredited institutions not degree mills as some would assume) I've come across half a dozen students in the last few years who were ready to abandon things after bad grades and hard critiques, who after a couple of conversations and support, turned into professionals who I would be happy to hire, some I would hire, if I could afford, and one is now a major player in one area of the industry making lots of waves and innovation. The start is a very sensitive time, often with little to no confidence. Not saying it's everyone, but what are the chances of half a dozen of those folks coming and going through here in the last decade?

Trip, you seem to be addressing an entirely different problem/scenario while using the same type of outcomes.

Your students or anyone's students in college, tech school, or whatever learning facility are going there to learn and get a piece of paper showing the world they accomplished something. They, or their parents have money and time invested, not to mention books, files, homework and partying. They have a lot to lose and can get caught up in the moment of failure or harsh grades. However, they are attempting for the most part to learn and further themselves. Being thin-skinned in college is just a young person trying to cope in an adult's body.

Here..... for the most part, we have many failures at something else, hobbyists, entrepreneurs and just lazy people dying to get into this one field with little to no cost whatsoever and not wanting to take the time to learn a blessed thing. They just wanna take what they can with no concern for the outcome of themselves, their customers or the industry. Picking on them... weeds out the weak, devious and mentally challenged nitwits who can't do. Why do we want to weaken our species by keeping riff-raff and other slime alive ?? Those, who know what they want, will survive and get past the hazing or slight insults. I don't know a single person that has never been challenged when they can't produce proof of who/what they are. Anyone.... worth one's salt can get through it and will become stronger due to it.

 

[CES020]

I've seen a number of people "old sign veterans", if you will, tear newbies designs to pieces, telling them they are no talent hacks that should give it up, only to be followed by posting their own work that looks worse than the newbies work. Only difference is when the sign veteran posts it, they are commended for their outstanding talent in a number of cases.

Why does one need thick skin to enter this trade? How about just treating people with respect, and like you'd want to be treated? What "right of passage" is required for beating someone into submission? There are a number of folks on here that give outstanding, honest, respectful advice. Then there's the bullies that think you need to belittle others in order to get your point across.

 

[Billct2]

only to be followed by posting their own work that looks worse than the newbies work.

totally agree with this, though even their work is often critized, and they are a minority

Why does one need thick skin to enter this trade

You need thick skin in order to enter any business these days, taking everything personal is a short road to ruin.
And if you can't get over real or imagined slights from strangers on a web forum how are you going to handle the real thing?

 

[Ponto]

A few follow up thoughts;

Raise your hand if you find yourself kerning the simplest of things: Text on a printed envelope as an example.

LOL.........Guilty,... and been referred to as "anal" when catching and correcting poor line and character spacing. I learned by repetition back in the day spending hours in the darkroom with a strip printer and rolls and rolls of various typefaces. Pasting up a layout and heading over to the camera for enlargements and reductions brings back some memories.

JP

 

[CES020]

And if you can't get over real or imagined slights from strangers on a web forum how are you going to handle the real thing?

I'm not suggesting that running a business is easy or should be easy, but is it really necessary to talk to some new people like some people do? Some people are hard headed, I understand that, but in many cases, the tone and nature is just uncalled for. Like I said, it's often coming from someone who's just posted one of the worst contributions to the sign world in history, telling some newbie that they should grow thick skin and suck it up.

 

[SignManiac]

I busted a friend on FB last night. His wife left him and he had the word BETRA YED tattooed on his right arm in large letters. My only comment to him was the kerning sucked between the A and the Y....

 

[Trip59]

Trip, you seem to be addressing an entirely different problem/scenario while using the same type of outcomes.

Your students or anyone's students in college, tech school, or whatever learning facility are going there to learn and get a piece of paper showing the world they accomplished something. They, or their parents have money and time invested, not to mention books, files, homework and partying. They have a lot to lose and can get caught up in the moment of failure or harsh grades. However, they are attempting for the most part to learn and further themselves. Being thin-skinned in college is just a young person trying to cope in an adult's body.

Here..... for the most part, we have many failures at something else, hobbyists, entrepreneurs and just lazy people dying to get into this one field with little to no cost whatsoever and not wanting to take the time to learn a blessed thing. They just wanna take what they can with no concern for the outcome of themselves, their customers or the industry. Picking on them... weeds out the weak, devious and mentally challenged nitwits who can't do. Why do we want to weaken our species by keeping riff-raff and other slime alive ?? Those, who know what they want, will survive and get past the hazing or slight insults. I don't know a single person that has never been challenged when they can't produce proof of who/what they are. Anyone.... worth one's salt can get through it and will become stronger due to it.

Valid point, the correlation from my perspective was a similar group of folks starting out with ambition, but perhaps not mommy and daddy's money for college. Some hazing or slights should be weathered by anyone hoping to succeed anywhere, but you've got to admit that some of the responses can go well beyond that point and even cross the border to outright insulting and mean. I do see that it's two distinct groups with different factors overall, but I still see the correlation.

I'm not trying to really change anything, but rather offer a perspective from the other side. As I said, quite a few of them have provided solid lunchtime entertainment; if you look through all of the types of threads in question though, some have an obvious difference in the initial post. "the guy down the block wanted $25 for a calvin sticker so I bought me a plotter cutter machine..." reads a bit different than someone who "got a cutter, what type of vinyl do I use" but both get trashed the same.

 

[Jeff]

An opinion as to ones design style or ability is certainly subjective, but the very simple/basic rules for a good LEGIBLE layout, use of color and such should not be.

I don't necessarily condone the "bullying" and such but it should be an unwritten law that before you buy your sign shop in a box off ebay, you should have had to read at least one of the many "layout" books mentioned here many times and take a simple test to prove that you at least understand the basics! That goes for all the at home pc owners that create their own crap that a legit designer used to. (flyers, card, invitations, etc)

It's never going to be a perfect "sign" world...but it has gotten much worse since ANYONE with a few dollars can be a sign maker / flyer designer!