It's okay to not make every change to a design that others suggest.

[Joe Diaz]

I had a client stop in with a huge list of suggested changes that his family and friends suggested we make to his design. Most of it was color changes, you know stuff involving personal preferences. Some of the changes weren't possible or conflicted with another change that someone suggested, nothing really serious. Just little things. But this client was overwhelmed with it all. When he first got the sketch he was on cloud 9, super excited about the project. Now he was so worried about picking the right shade of blue, or whether this looked slightly better here rather than there.

So I explained that I can make any changes he wants but it may pay off better to bet on the instincts of the folks that do this every day for a living, rather than the opinions of friends and family who aren't designers or sign artists. I said that when you ask for opinions on a design a lot of times people will come up with an opinion on the spot. Heck some people will give you an opinion even if you don't ask for it. But for most people the only reason they are suggesting changes is because you challenged them to find something to change and I have always found that when given the opportunity they will almost always rise to the challenge. :Big Laugh But that doesn't mean that every proposed change is a good one or is even necessary.

Then after he left I came up with a brilliant line to use (don't you hate that when that happens). I thought of a way to put it in terms that he would understand. Next time I'm going to tell them to try asking their family and friends to come to an agreement on what car you should buy, AND THAT is why it's impossible to design the perfect logo for everyone.

We worked through it but I'm thinking I need to get a better handle on how many revisions/concepts are included in our pricing. :Big Laugh

 

[Techman]

that list reveals the results of too many choices. Too many choice always creates insecurity. The client has no idea what he is doing and gets help from every one he can. Then he finds himself challenged with his own insecurities.

First order of business? Eliminate all choices.

 

[ddubia]

I'm going something similar right now with a sign for a church. Guy's wife got involved and she's focusing on a maroon color. It's the lettering and border color on a beige background as they wished. I printed a sample and they liked it but felt it should be a little "redder". Then they thought it could be just a little bit darker.

Feeling exhausted with it I explained that the color will look like one thing in here. It will look different outside. It will look different again on a bright sunny day, then different yet on a cloudy day. It will look different in the morning and different in the afternoon and still different toward late afternoon. Without sounding like an *** I explained that we can tweak and adjust till the cows come home and no matter what we come up with it will look different than that once the sign is installed.

I don't want to make it sound like color on a sign isn't important. But I hope most of you understand what I'm saying. It's not like I'm dealing with IBM and have to hit a Pantone color with 3 brokers breathing down my neck.

Luckily, the way I explained it they understood and decided on the first option after all.

 

[fresh]

When someone is being overly picky about color, I tell them to bring me a sample of the color that they would like us to match, and we will come close to it, maybe not match it exactly, but come close.

No one ever takes me up on the offer.

 

[player]

I hate when I am designing a logo for a company, big or small, and they go out to the production floor and ask the entry level workers for their opinion, when they have no clue as to the marketing and target market the design is intended for. So the janitor is now head of marketing...

 

[TammieH]

We just went through 5 versions of what shape size and spacing of some etch mark vinyl on glass just to keep people from walking into it...every time they came back to us someone else in the company had a change.

The problem is, everyone has an opinion......

 

[Z SIGNS]

Interesting topic.

I think all designers go through this this torture.
I try to shy away from customers who question my judgement.
The best we can do is try to see it coming and nip it in the bud before it escalates.

It could also be an opportunity if you are hired as consultant/designer with the fee for this quoted up front.
I'll go to meetings,make revisions,do mock ups till the cows come home as long as I'm getting paid.

After sketch #32 here was my reply to the head of a large committee on a large sign project.

Attached is a sketch based on the recommendations of your committee members.

My thoughts on these changes are this.

I do not recommend making any changes.

It increases the lead time to fabricate.This means more samples,meetings etc.(stay on this course the sign won’t happen anytime soon)

Decisions on color combinations of the sign should not be based on a committee members personal preference.
They should be based on what sign professionals know to be proven color combinations that give maximum readability.
In the grand scheme of things these slight color changes have nothing to do with the overall intent of the sign which is to
Capture the viewers attention and inform.(I think we have accomplished this)

We billed them 70 hours consulting and design time and they went with our first sketch
We also built and and installed the signs.

BTW Kudos to you Joe on your recent awards
Your work is awesome

 

[Marlene]

so true as most of the family base their changes on their favorite color or want the LLC huge or some other thing that has nothing to do with anything. when they get into the area of they don't get it, then I listen. all designs are for the untrained, non-professional eye to see. if the general public doesn't get it, then it needs some help.

 

[artbot]

it's also okay to force a client to choose or fire that client and keep the design fees. for the last ten years, i did whatever i could to make my clients happy. what happened? i'd be into 6-10 revisions. these are extremely expensive pieces so there's a "feeling" that there's a budget for this kind of behavior.

since i've become stricter and started having my clients sign a design contract that specifically tells them they will incur charges that are priced by the revision. also coming up with a formal glossary to keep the client understanding if we are working on a look, draft, or proof.... i've started making more money.

projects have to ship. the quicker you ship, the more the end user insists on that quickness thus getting you more compressed order flow.

so don't be afraid to be a jerk. get a contract going. warn of empending surcharges. trust me the client will get off the pot so to speak.

and they will feel that they are working with a "real designer" that doesn't need their business to survive. there's a behavioral economic to this that is quite complex. subconsciously, people want to work with
those that are the "elite" their field. if you go to an attorney that is expensive. you ask the exact questions and don't doddle around. and you respect what he tells you. when you get a cheap attorney the conversation can wander and you leave feeling you want a second opinion.

 

[rjssigns]

And I thought everyone on this forum liked the slow agonizing "death by committee" process. Learn sumthin' everyday...:Big Laugh

 

[Speedsterbeast]

it's also okay to force a client to choose or fire that client and keep the design fees. for the last ten years, i did whatever i could to make my clients happy. what happened? i'd be into 6-10 revisions. these are extremely expensive pieces so there's a "feeling" that there's a budget for this kind of behavior.

since i've become stricter and started having my clients sign a design contract that specifically tells them they will incur charges that are priced by the revision. also coming up with a formal glossary to keep the client understanding if we are working on a look, draft, or proof.... i've started making more money.

projects have to ship. the quicker you ship, the more the end user insists on that quickness thus getting you more compressed order flow.

so don't be afraid to be a jerk. get a contract going. warn of empending surcharges. trust me the client will get off the pot so to speak.

and they will feel that they are working with a "real designer" that doesn't need their business to survive. there's a behavioral economic to this that is quite complex. subconsciously, people want to work with
those that are the "elite" their field. if you go to an attorney that is expensive. you ask the exact questions and don't doddle around. and you respect what he tells you. when you get a cheap attorney the conversation can wander and you leave feeling you want a second opinion.

Well said

 

[Pixels Are Bad Mmmkay?]

Well said

I agree.

 

[Joe Diaz]

it's also okay to force a client to choose or fire that client and keep the design fees. for the last ten years, i did whatever i could to make my clients happy. what happened? i'd be into 6-10 revisions. these are extremely expensive pieces so there's a "feeling" that there's a budget for this kind of behavior.

since i've become stricter and started having my clients sign a design contract that specifically tells them they will incur charges that are priced by the revision. also coming up with a formal glossary to keep the client understanding if we are working on a look, draft, or proof.... i've started making more money.

projects have to ship. the quicker you ship, the more the end user insists on that quickness thus getting you more compressed order flow.

so don't be afraid to be a jerk. get a contract going. warn of empending surcharges. trust me the client will get off the pot so to speak.

and they will feel that they are working with a "real designer" that doesn't need their business to survive. there's a behavioral economic to this that is quite complex. subconsciously, people want to work with
those that are the "elite" their field. if you go to an attorney that is expensive. you ask the exact questions and don't doddle around. and you respect what he tells you. when you get a cheap attorney the conversation can wander and you leave feeling you want a second opinion.

Good point's I'm usually pretty firm about most things when it comes to the design process. Like I said in my first post, I need to get a better handle on how revisions are handled though. The majority of the time it's not a problem, it's just those few clients who have a hard time making their own decisions and focus too much on the opinions of their friends and family, the non professional designers. I don't think it's ever gotten to the point where we lost money because of it. I guess you could argue that any extra time spent trying to reassure a client could be considered a drain on your profit. Also I wouldn't say we use a glossary, but we talk with a customer early on about the difference between "revisions" and "concepts". revisions being something like a color change, and a new concept being a complete change in the direction of the layout. Adding additional concepts beyond what was originally agreed on adds to the cost of the project. To a certain extent a few revisions are normally a part of the deal, within reason. And that is what I may need to fix. I need to clarify what "within reason" is.

 

[artbot]

i worked really hard on getting a design contract (layman's terms) that would get my projects going from start to finish. i'd be glad to share it if anyone might want a starting point. each
designer will require something slightly different. one thing i also changed was the 50% down. i now do 33% three times. seems to keep the client in a different progression mode.

as a designer/fabricator, if i'm not producing, i'm not making money. design is the variable that can end up being just about anything. production can be accurately calculated. the trick is to
structure design the same.