Just me or do some spot colors print like ****?

[SIGNTIME]

I'm having a hard time printing a job. Printing on 3751ra on my xj540 proiii using versaworks and a certain spot color ( all vector art saved in illy as .esp). I have noticed before some spot colors print great while others just don't. I try not to depend on spot colors for this reason. Today the offender is ST41k against black areas which is BK22A (I always use spot black because it gives best results for us). Where they meet the edge is not crisp it is "fuzzy" and IMO not exceptable. also the Burgundy (ST41k) is also blotchy looking. Does this happen for anyone else using the rvw spot colors? Is there anyway to going and fix this? I have very limited knowledge in profiling and i normally use canned profiles and get pretty good results IMO. i have tried using a different profile, have tried printing unidirectional, messed with heat settings, messed with dither and color management presets.... nothing seems to help other changing the color to a process

 

[petepaz]

looks like a heat or material profile issue. we have vp540, xc-540 and xr-640 and when we have had similar issues it was a heat or material profile problem. either the heat was off or too low for some reason or they used a generic profile. we use glossy calendared vinyl and matte calendered vinyl profiles on oracal 3651 and 3164 they print ok for us. also i have been trying to do most prints on matte vinyl if possible seems we get a better output.

 

[SIGNTIME]

Yea I agree 100% with matte printing better i think it is because the gloss media takes longer for the ink to penetrate. But I have messed with the heat what not and didn't seem to make much difference, I just ran some more prints matching the burgundy using RGB and am going to run this job with that as the van is being dropped off in the morning. It seems as if it may be the black that is not crisp idk... I print 3751 a good bit and for the most part never have an issue.

 

[graphicwarning]

also i have been trying to do most prints on matte vinyl if possible seems we get a better output.

I used for the first time the other day Orajet 3651 in Matte and really liked the output. Also made it super easy to laminate with 210 and a BS.

On the red/black though... Looks almost like the colors/ink is bleeding together? Maybe the heat setting?

 

[SIGNTIME]

The reason I think it has to do with the spot colors is if you notice in the close up picture where the burgundy and black meet it looks terrible and both those are spot colors but where the black meets the yellow its nice and crisp same as where the burgundy meets the yellow, those yellows are pantones. I am thinking that the spot colors are laying down more ink causing that jagged edge. I will have to do some more test prints and try slowing down the head speed see if that helps I guess.

 

[hansman]

Why not convert all spots to cmyk before you send it to Versawork?
By sending spots over you are relying on VW spot conversions instead of Adobe's which IMHO are pretty good depending on your output profile.

 

[DesireeM]

Why not convert all spots to cmyk before you send it to Versawork?
By sending spots over you are relying on VW spot conversions instead of Adobe's which IMHO are pretty good depending on your output profile.

He is using the VersaWorks spot colors which are basically just cmyk with more ink output to get a brighter or stronger color that is inherent in spot color. There's no conversion. VersaWorks created those spot colors with specific information for cmyk output in Versaworks. So you print out the swatch chart to use as reference and then design using the swatches provided for your layout software. So you have a hard copy reference of exactly what that digital swatch will print as.

Plus there's no magical conversion of Spot to cmyk where the printed color matches the spot swatch - some converted spots will work on a certain setting but others won't on the same setting.
It's a trial and error process at best. Pantone gives you cmyk numbers for their colors but you can't rely on that either because there are too many variables (printer brand, ink brand, software, setting etc..)

 

[CES020]

I took this photo of a wrap I saw the other day. I didn't wrap it or print it, but it looks like the same issue you are having.

The photo got rotated, sorry about that.

 

[hansman]

He is using the VersaWorks spot colors which are basically just cmyk with more ink output to get a brighter or stronger color that is inherent in spot color. There's no conversion. VersaWorks created those spot colors with specific information for cmyk output in Versaworks. So you print out the swatch chart to use as reference and then design using the swatches provided for your layout software. So you have a hard copy reference of exactly what that digital swatch will print as.

Plus there's no magical conversion of Spot to cmyk where the printed color matches the spot swatch - some converted spots will work on a certain setting but others won't on the same setting.
It's a trial and error process at best. Pantone gives you cmyk numbers for their colors but you can't rely on that either because there are too many variables (printer brand, ink brand, software, setting etc..)

Of course there is conversion............... Every file you send over to Versaworks gets converted to the output profile (.icc) your device is set up to use.
The ink set on the printer consist of CMYK with LM & LC taking up the percentage below %50 depending on the profile you are using. The reason some spots work better than others is inherent in the CMYK printing process.
The benefits of converting before you send over a file gives you the ability to tweek some of the cmyk numbers before sending the file over to VW.

 

[DesireeM]

Of course there is conversion............... Every file you send over to Versaworks gets converted to the output profile (.icc) your device is set up to use.
The ink set on the printer consist of CMYK with LM & LC taking up the percentage below %50 depending on the profile you are using. The reason some spots work better than others is inherent in the CMYK printing process.
The benefits of converting before you send over a file gives you the ability to tweek some of the cmyk numbers before sending the file over to VW.

I agree with your last sentence for OTHER spot color libraries but please research the Roland color system library and what it is before you disagree with me. It isn't the same as other spot color libraries. Converting them in adobe would defeat the purpose of using them in the first place. They are meant to be used AS IS through the Versa works software. They are calibrated specifically for the versaworks rip software.

 

[SIGNTIME]

I ended up just matching the color in rgb and it solved the issues I was having. It seems that while some of the RVW spots print very nice other do not in this case VW was telling the printer to lay down to much ink. Is there a way to edit the Spot colors in VW? I do like how with most of the RVW spot colors there is very little to no graininess and how it eases the color matching process.

 

[hansman]

@DesireeM................ I know that Versaworks has a color library.
My point is why let Versaworks control your spot colors?
Everything needs to be converted. Whether it is VW's little spot chart etc. etc. it all needs to be cmyk numbers to print on the printer.

IMHO by selecting a spot from the versaworks spot library you are simply leaving too much to chance.

Click on an output profile see what .icc profile is being used. For instance SWOP or US Sheetfed. These are what controls the colors output intent on thhe printer.
Knowing what you are outputting with can help you control the colors you design in and send to Versaworks.

 

[DesireeM]

IMHO by selecting a spot from the versaworks spot library you are simply leaving too much to chance.

This is ridiculous...the point is that by using the Roland spot library you are leaving NOTHING to chance because you would already have a hard copy printed color that shows you EXACTLY what color will print if you use that spot color. You have to just use the same profile you used when you printed out your hard copy swatch chart (which kind of goes without saying...). That's the whole point of its existence. The exact reason Roland created it in the first place. To take out the guess work or the "chance" you mention above.

 

[hansman]

I hear you........ I wanted it to work.
Some colors were spot on all the time but the topic here is that some were NOT.


IMHO when I tried it I think if the printer is not EXACTLY linearized to the day the chart was printed then its useless.
You end up wasting more time than if you just stick to a CMYK all converted workflow. This way in the event that something goes wrong (and it will) you just open it up in Illy or Photoshop and adjust the color using different values in the file.

You can even use an Eye One and read what is in the original printed spot and compare it and get your different number there.
2 clicks and you are done.