Knowing what you know now...

[Pat Whatley]

I remember when I first arrived here Brokers and there business model were very taboo and frowned upon.

I think there's a world of difference between what most people are talking about and a broker. In my experience brokers have nothing to do with a project other than the actual sales.

Most people here are referring to doing the consultation, design, and sales themselves, then letting a company with the specialty tools necessary do the actual fabrication.

 

[Pat Whatley]

Disregarding commodity products, Joe has got it. You can find products to accomplish a particular task anywhere. What people buy most especially on a repeat basis is absolutely based on relationships. If you are doing it right over 85% of your business should come from about 20 clients.
Brilliant post and absolutely right.

Before I bought my shop I used to wonder how all the little mom and pop businesses in town stayed open and had been open for 30 years. After buying the place I realized how true what you said is. After doing a business valuation last year I realized that 70% of my business came from 10 companies and that none of them ever asked about prices.

 

[JgS]

I'd go work for someone else. Let them pay the bills.

 

[neato]

Lot's of good advice on this thread along with other interesting opinions.

Like I said, I'm not looking for a job. I make a living with my design work. I just need a creative outlet and would like to increase my income a bit, so I'm in NO RUSH to go after coroplast, banners, wraps etc. Nothing against those things, I just don't want to compete with the other shops already doing them. I've been down that road once, and don't care to return.

I want to focus on high quality dimensional type signage. I'm not opposed to doing those other items for good customers. But I won't compete on price, period.

And no, I'm not looking to go to work for anyone.

 

[Moze]

I want to focus on high quality dimensional type signage. I'm not opposed to doing those other items for good customers. But I won't compete on price, period.

And no, I'm not looking to go to work for anyone.

... Aw man, I was hoping you would be the Illinois branch of Precision Sign Services.

 

[artbot]

i've been able to prove to myself that there's not a lot of profit at the uber high end. i'm phasing it out over the next few years. my art signage sells commonly for $200-$475 per square foot. by the tim agents and designers get their cut and you've revised a design for months to get design committees and board members all happy, the project will have lost it's artistic edge and margin. that said, those that make the money around me are the outsourcers. they can bounce as soon as the deal is done and go get another cut leaving the heavy lifting for the guy with the tools, shop, risk, sweat, and hours to invest.

 

[Mosh]

If I opened a new shop tomorrow I don't think I would drink so much this time around.

 

[Gino]

If I opened a new shop tomorrow I don't think I would drink so much this time around.

Yeah, you'd drink more....... like me. ............ but ya gotta stop that beer crap. Step up to the finer things in life.
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[Locals Find!]

I think there's a world of difference between what most people are talking about and a broker. In my experience brokers have nothing to do with a project other than the actual sales.

Most people here are referring to doing the consultation, design, and sales themselves, then letting a company with the specialty tools necessary do the actual fabrication.

Under your definition I am not really a broker then. I know enough to consult on jobs for the ones I take on, do the layouts (won't call it design as it's really not) and do all my own sales.

 

[Gino]

Really..... I'm literally biting my tongue.............................................





























































.

 

[Gino]

Tolja..............

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[Rick]

First things first... Stop thinking small(town) America

You have a market that spans around the globe if you want.

What is high end? I mean, do you know what high end is?
I ask this question all the time to clients of mine when they
"high end" then find out, it's really high end for "Fast Signs"

What type of "high end" work do you want to do?

You mention "high quality dimensional type signage"
What type is that? got any photo examples?... is it like
Disney theme park type stuff?

 

[neato]

This kind of stuff:

http://www.avilasigndesign.com/portfolio_details.php?id=1

http://lonowood.com/signs/gallery.html

And, if I ever hone my skills, some really 3d, Dan Sawatsky, RogueRoller kind of stuff.

 

[Rick]

Are you going to design and build it, or just design it?

if you are already busy enough with the existing design work,
building these things can take up quite a bit of time.

I just read Dans comments on Letterville and I agree with them

You want to build them? Make samples..

if you want to design these signs as an exercise, build a high end
website and post the best designs you have...

Then stick to the type of work you want, and charge enough...
you really have to design your own market and stick to it.
Though there are quite a few people designing at that level
so there is a market, there is also competition for that work.

Most high end dimensional signs are designed by environmental
graphic designers. if you want to JUST design, I would look into
that part of the work.

www.segd.org

Themed or dimensional signs have specialties... theme parks,
exhibits, retail, architectural...

http://www.teaconnect.org/
http://www.iaapa.org/
http://www.themeparkcity.com/itps/L_tradeass.htm
http://www.popai.com/

 

[OADesign]

Um. WOW. This has probably been THE best thread I've read on the web in months.

Sorry. ahem. As you were.

 

[neato]

I agree. This has turned into a great thread.

Thanks so much for all the input. Thanks Rick for taking the time to post all those resources.

I'll be honest, I'm not thinking that 'big' at this point, but it's great info nonetheless.

 

[SignManiac]

I make a lot of dimensional signs and have noticed it getting harder and harder to sell this type at a highly profitable price because of all the competition now. Routers are cheaper and just like plotter cut vinyl, wide format printing, and every other facet of the trade, it's becoming a commodity market. Even when you have a superior design, customers today are always putting price before everything else. And the truth is, high end dimensional signs take more time to make and typically use more expensive materials. It's a double edge sword.

 

[John Butto]

I make a lot of dimensional signs and have noticed it getting harder and harder to sell this type at a highly profitable price because of all the competition now. Routers are cheaper and just like plotter cut vinyl, wide format printing, and every other facet of the trade, it's becoming a commodity market. Even when you have a superior design, customers today are always putting price before everything else. And the truth is, high end dimensional signs take more time to make and typically use more expensive materials. It's a double edge sword.

As Signmaniac says about the availability of machines doing this sort of dimensional work and more people becoming good at this part of the sign market. This type of signage will be easy to obtain for a small dollar amount. It will be where you could change out the look every year or maybe in the future, every month. I personally do not like the look, it has been use so much since the sandblasting redwood and then the foam so it has grown boring. Do not take that wrong, there is a high level of skill to making these stand out, but Signmaniac is starting to see the writing on the wall. Come on the guy puts out some fantastic stuff and he sees the frustration of business dealing with people looking for the best price.
Let's take designing logos, people like what is the fab at the moment, as putting a cute graphic icon and then some font next to it. or a fancy shape created with software and then throwing some fonts on top. There are literally hundreds of thousands of people throughout the world doing this sort of thing, and the numbers are growing. How do I plead, guilty, your Honor.
Signs are an art form, you cannot be afraid to try new things, get looked at with a concerning eye and take the abuse and hear, "that is not what I was thinking it would look like, something more like this that I found on the web". Most, and I use that term loosely, are followers, if everyone likes it, they like it.
So if you are artistic being and want to start doing something else, do not be like some of Signmaniac's customers and and be just concerned with the buck, do something that is new and put some hard work into it and it will be more rewarding. And maybe with luck, pay off, if that is what you are concerned with.

 

[Gino]

To add to John and Maniac's observations and first hand experiences.... many of the people today have still not seen the many accomplishments by people like Maniac and those of Rick's resources, so to them.... they're the newest thing on the block. So, they don't even realize, they're trying to re-invent the wheel, but on the cheap side of town. People doing this sort of thing day in & day out see it as a challenge to better themselves. Look at Dan's Shop stuff. He's gone way above and beyond what almost anyone can do and he's teaching others how to do it.... almost like a franchise. He is charging for his classes, but his knowledge.... he's basically giving away for free and including a way of making a living if you utilize HIS knowledge. No where do you have to try something and fail. He's with you every step of the way. He wants creative people to remain in control. Not these mimic monkeys that jockey around on a machine pretending to be success stories.

For me, it's always been about the art standpoint and it changed to signs in my late teens... early 20's. I've never looked back, except to see how far I've come. I'm still learning today and with the help of this place :signs101:.... I've managed to get more help than I ever figured imaginable. It's also opened my eyes to things I never knew about. BUT, the best thing, is all the new friends and partners in business I've managed to make.

 

[neato]

Great post Gino!