konica vs seiko vs xaar question

[artbot]

i'm having a custom printer put together. currently it is bid out for konica-minolta k512 35pl heads. but i've noticed with other printer builders, they list all available head manufacturers as an option.

i need (somewhat in this order):

maximum allowable ink viscosity
heaviest ink lay-down
UV ink compatibility
oil based and full solvent compatibility
best in harsh environment/least delicate
cheapest to replace
resolution is almost irrelevant (usually print 360x720 two pass)
grayscale is preferable but not a must

of these prerequisites, what head might be best suited for my printer build?

thanks in advance!

aa

 

[jnataros]

the new xaar1001 might be a good candidate for you; it fires 6-42pl..

they have a SDK and developer kit you can get from them that would be easier to integrate with your one-off printer as well.
http://www.xaar.com/uploads/xaaridk_final_v1.pdf

Josh

 

[artbot]

man does that make want to just build it myself (with some local tech help). ....must resist the temp...ta...tion.... ...looks very fun..... with the ink delivery systems, does this act as a "non" subtank set up? (haven't read up yet).

 

[jhanson]

Well, for heavy ink laydown, a 35pL head should get you pretty good results at 360x720.

Spectra made some of the most indestructible heads (the Nova 256 series had stainless nozzle plates) but since Fuji took over, they've become terribly expensive to replace. Konica heads are in use in almost every brand of industrial printer, and I haven't really heard any bad things about them.

 

[artbot]

i'm curious if each OEM makes these developer kits. the table i'm converting to a printer already seems to have the guts for printing more than i originally assumed now that i've been able to give it a walk through. it was a massive laser etching table. has two huge servos, the y-axis looks really quick and stable. i just need to run one head for my monochrome stuff. surely i can get one head, a carriage board, and encoder strip/sensor, and hack into the existing limit switches.(?)

what is the single widest head? is it the konica 1024 (72mm)?

http://www.konicaminolta.com/inkjethead/products/inkjethead/1024/index.html

 

[jhanson]

I believe so. From Konica, anyway... unless you want to go into MEMS heads which are a whole other can of worms.

 

[artbot]

the 1024 at 72mm only beats the xaar 1001 by 2mm. and it looks like the xaar is much more user friendly with the label market which is almost always custom. there's a much better bet that i could find a tech in the houston area for a xaar custom system.

 

[Nishan]

We have been running 2 Jeti FULL Solvent machines for 4 years now , 24 spectra SL heads (80 pl ) and, and the other one with 24 Spectra SM heads (50 pl ). We have had to spend a lot more time cleaning nozzles on the SM heads, but the SL heads have performed exceptionally well - I only replaced 2 heads in the past 4 years, and must have run in excess of 400 000 sqm. The smaller the drop size, the more attention to the heads is needed.

 

[RycckG]

I just received some sample prints from the Xaar1001 heads on the Grapo (now SigmaJet) Shark. 6 - 42 true greyscale heads printing UV. The sell the technology as a 1 pass printer but my 100% solid coverage is not acceptable until 3 pass mode at teh least...

Good luck with the decision...
Rycck

 

[jnataros]

i'm curious if each OEM makes these developer kits. the table i'm converting to a printer already seems to have the guts for printing more than i originally assumed now that i've been able to give it a walk through. it was a massive laser etching table. has two huge servos, the y-axis looks really quick and stable. i just need to run one head for my monochrome stuff. surely i can get one head, a carriage board, and encoder strip/sensor, and hack into the existing limit switches.(?)

what is the single widest head? is it the konica 1024 (72mm)?

http://www.konicaminolta.com/inkjethead/products/inkjethead/1024/index.html

each OEM does produce development kits... they are just easier to get via xaar as they are loosing market share these days...

are your servos for driving the motion for electromagnetic linear motors?
if so; limits should be set at the firmware of the servo drives and via the controlling software for the printer's computer. If using the XAAR kit and linear servos you will need that printer to have it's own computer for controlling functions aside from a computer to RIP images etc....
a limit switch at the end of the gantry should only be for emergency cut off if the carriage travels too far?

Feel free to Give us a call; we've been working on custom building a printer for a couple months now and have done quite a lot of research

Josh
512.971.4575

 

[artbot]

that would be great. austin and freeport are about four hours apart. i haven't broken into the table too much so far. ...have a rush order due saturday. but it looks like a very solid build. originally it was for laser etching glass. so the gantry is tight and light weight. perfect for a small head carriage.

@RccykG thanks for the heads up. i'm planning on printing b/w heaviest laydown possible, then come back after the ink wets out curing. so i am allowing for maximum dot gain. two pass with that printing technique works well for me.

one other option is to just gut a different printer... set up the stops encoder and carriage and do my best to not let the printer figure out that it's been transplanted. it seems any width of printer would do as long as i can hack the firmware or rip to let the media sensor see the 82".

 

[jnataros]

that would be great. austin and freeport are about four hours apart. i haven't broken into the table too much so far. ...have a rush order due saturday. but it looks like a very solid build. originally it was for laser etching glass. so the gantry is tight and light weight. perfect for a small head carriage.

@RccykG thanks for the heads up. i'm planning on printing b/w heaviest laydown possible, then come back after the ink wets out curing. so i am allowing for maximum dot gain. two pass with that printing technique works well for me.

one other option is to just gut a different printer... set up the stops encoder and carriage and do my best to not let the printer figure out that it's been transplanted. it seems any width of printer would do as long as i can hack the firmware or rip to let the media sensor see the 82".

I think it would be easier to do a 'transplant' as long as you didn't have to hack the firmware... many printers have crude methods of sensing media in them; if at all... (most Epsons can be shut off from sensing at all and just trust the operator).

I attempted to start into the custom printer world by transplanting an epson 7600 (24 inch) to a table and using the existing y-gantry, just swapping a table and using SEPIAX instead of the aqueous from epson...and it didn't turn out that great. the encoder for media travel never worked quite right... I think if you were to transplant it would have to be a printer with a stepper motor for media transportation and a good web feed gearing that is set to your device.

But remember; if you are going to gut a printer (and you were looking into UV printheads) the picoliter dot side may be too small to jet the fluids you want at an acceptable speed... if at all......

are you wanting the printer to move x-y or the media to pass under a stationary bridge?

Also, most of these UV/industrial printheads require a negative vacuum pressure system and will need to be regulated for a correct meniscus level to keep ink from pouring out of the heads and to jet easily.

Sorry if I am not providing useful information or am annoying... I just find the entire concept fascinating

Josh

 

[artbot]

the printer i was going to use i'm confident would be very easy to mount to this table. for instance, the x callibration is done with an independent toshiba module (not from the firmware). so that helps quit a bit. the only thing that needs to be hacked is the x axis so piece of cake on that.

thing is, the whole laser gantry is right there staring at me. it seems such a shame to not look into it. plus if i mount a printer gantry, i have to build z up's for the whole 300lb monster. the gantry on the laser table has a 3" clearance. so i just have to do a z up for the head carriage (no balancing left/right).

also, the xaar kit seems to have a fluid delivery system for each color (do these contain the negative pressure pumps? maybe). i know nothing about systems with subtanks, negative pressure etc. truth is, i'd surely hire a custom label tech to wire it up. and a linear motion guy in the area to figure out the boards, etc. i'm more into the material/ink/technique side of things than the mechanical.

the advantage to just ordering the custom printer would be i could keep it on it's legs and really master it's quirks. basically stick it where the jv3 is between my air tables. then when i get brave, rip it apart! or get spooked and just buy a vutek or something. but i really want the giant length (without using vacuum belts).

...also here's bad pic of the thing (unloading). the gantry will do the traveling.

 

[signage]

Artbot how do you keep this thing level, sitting on plywood just sitting on the ground? I would think you would want at least a framed flooring system, on some type pier system.

 

[artbot]

it's in a temporary shelter (weatherport.com) the floor is just something to walk on for the year while we get our building figured out a the back of the property. the table has risers on each leg so i'll just drop a laser across. i'm not sure the table will even be printing that much before it leaves the building. i've got two or three other custom/top-secret giant gizmos to build that go with it.

 

[jhanson]

I attempted to start into the custom printer world by transplanting an epson 7600 (24 inch) to a table and using the existing y-gantry, just swapping a table and using SEPIAX instead of the aqueous from epson...and it didn't turn out that great. the encoder for media travel never worked quite right... I think if you were to transplant it would have to be a printer with a stepper motor for media transportation and a good web feed gearing that is set to your device.

At my old company we got an Epson 7800 that had been hacked into a T-shirt printer by a mad Taiwanese engineer. He chopped the PF shaft short and reinstalled it into the machine with another encoder reader, so the Epson would drive the servo system normally and get the feedback it expected, while his encoder pickup would then interpret the signals and send it to a servo that drove the printer along a table via a worm gear.

The only problem was that due to the PF shaft being imbalanced, sometimes the Epson would throw a servo error, and a worm drive is terrible for anything over about 4 feet in length since the gear sags in the middle and begins vibrating. The table on this machine was about 8 feet long, and once it got running, the printer would start skipping 3-4 times along each print.

I imagine that if he had used a linear motor instead of a worm gear, or even a belt drive, and had the signal feedback calibrated properly, the system may have worked better.

 

[artbot]

here's some close ups. i'm sure the linear motion side of things will not be an issue. the table looks over built and the tolerances are very tight. such as on the gantry there are two linear slides, the whole carriage is locked in with "0" budge. not nearly as sloppy as all the printers i've had.

it all comes down to options. having a custom carriage means i can achieve endless speed upgrades. but i need to keep it super simple first. i could probably stick a novajet 600 on it and start making money.

i'd like to get it printing for $10k. for that limited budget i'm stuck with sticking an old mutoh 87" over it. if i go $18k i can do something industrial. also there are lots of $10k 82" dx5 chinese eco-solvent printers out there which look tempting because the parts are so cheap. i figure machining/motors/misc will run $3k.