Laminating Bubble Issue

[matze214]

Hey, iam pretty New to Signmaking and iam biting my theeth out with laminating, i mostly Produce motocross Graphics.

I have a certain Issue which i cant get along, even my fellow technician from the Company i have my machines from cant help me.

I have the Problem that when i laminate certain materials the first 30 centimeters are completely fine, but then there are bubbles in a line Form and that repeats every 5-10 centimeters.

With other materials everything works completely finde.

Material used orafol 7510 fluo cast as base
And substance 1000 matte laminate as laminate.
Maschine used mimaki la 160w on 60 degrees

Greetings it would save me so much when someone has an idea where the Problem could come from

 

[Stacey K]

Are you sure the tension isn't too tight? Or maybe your roller has a bow in it?

 

[Geneva Olson]

can you post pictures?

 

[JBurton]

Sounds like you're getting bubbles running parallel with the rollers? In that case, you are cranking the pressure too high on the pinch rollers, deforming the roller, and causing the materials to advance at two different rates.
I personally wouldn't use heat, but if you are set on using it, try slowing down your speed. If you feed it too quickly, you are not heating the laminate up consistently, the initial 30cm that look good has been resting on the heated rollers while the machine warms up, and the following material isn't getting warmed as thoroughly as it's getting applied.

 

[matze214]

Stacey K tried it with the gloss variant of the same laminate, same thickness, same Producer. Bubblefree perfect lamination.
Same laminate different print media, perfect lamination. Thought about the same because the edges are not with bubbles.

Do you mean tension of the feedroller?

JBurton yes the Bubbles are parallel to the rollers. So i should give less Pressung to the rollers? I crank the Pressure wheel so long that it becomes a little harder to spin.

I surely can try it without heat, had some silvering issues with gloss laminate of substance and it went away with hat so i thought it could help there too.

Iam feeding very slow but maybe it could be that it doesnt have the time to heat up even iam slowly feeding it because the laminate is that thick.

Will try to cold laminate it tomorrow.

 

[JBurton]

@JBurton yes the Bubbles are parallel to the rollers. So i should give less Pressung to the rollers? I crank the Pressure wheel so long that it becomes a little harder to spin.

I surely can try it without heat, had some silvering issues with gloss laminate of substance and it went away with hat so i thought it could help there too.

Iam feeding very slow but maybe it could be that it doesnt have the time to heat up even iam slowly feeding it because the laminate is that thick.

On mine, I crank until the rollers touch, then between 1/12 and 1/6th of an extra turn. Make sure you have just the laminate and print media in there, laminated with backing still on it is thicker.
Silvering should go away with time. Do a test run and put it on a shelf for a week, see if it doesn't just go away without any help.
If you're already feeding slow, I don't think slower would necessarily do anything better, but it will heat more evenly.

 

[greysquirrel]

what laminator model? always error on less. use 1 piece of tape dead middle to remove liner from laminate. I run with as much on ZERO BRAKE as I can. Less is more. you can always add when sending long run. is the film flat to top roller before entering machine? are you using craft on bottom of everything?(I would not. ok to use if that's how you web but there are better ways at webbing as well) are there any Knicks or cuts in your top roller? Is your material being laminated running smoothly through machine? shoot a video and post

 

[matze214]

JBurton Iam feeding nearly the slowest the Laminator can work, i dont know if i cant get much slower. I try that with the Silvering.

greysquirrel Mimaki LA 160W Laminator. Its brand new, there are no cuts or dents. Aslong as i know, checked it didnt see anything.
The Thing is i laminated the same Media with a different Substance Material. Same thickness, same Cast, only the Surface is matte instead of gloss. Perfect Lamination.

("I run with as much on ZERO BRAKE as I can.") What do you mean with that? Sorry english is not my first Language.

"(are you using craft on bottom of everything?(I would not. ok to use if that's how you web but there are better ways at webbing as well)") And what do you mean with that? I web that i feed the laminate first without backing. Then put the roll down and feed the material in. Material should be running smoothly as i can tell, will shoot a video for you.

 

[JBurton]

i dont know if i cant get much slower

Yeah, don't worry about speed. I'd still focus on amount of pressure between the rollers.
Zero Brake is referencing the tension on the print media. If your laminator is struggling to pull the material, it's likely stretching it and giving you fits.
I think the questions on your laminator are due to you listing it: "Maschine used mimaki la 160w on 60 degrees", used here could imply you bought it second hand and it's not in great condition.

 

[Creative Sign Guy(s)]

JBurton Iam feeding nearly the slowest the Laminator can work, i dont know if i cant get much slower. I try that with the Silvering.

greysquirrel Mimaki LA 160W Laminator. Its brand new, there are no cuts or dents. Aslong as i know, checked it didnt see anything.
The Thing is i laminated the same Media with a different Substance Material. Same thickness, same Cast, only the Surface is matte instead of gloss. Perfect Lamination.

("I run with as much on ZERO BRAKE as I can.") What do you mean with that? Sorry english is not my first Language.

"(are you using craft on bottom of everything?(I would not. ok to use if that's how you web but there are better ways at webbing as well)") And what do you mean with that? I web that i feed the laminate first without backing. Then put the roll down and feed the material in. Material should be running smoothly as i can tell, will shoot a video for you.

Matte is amazing at hiding defects.

In my experience with motorcycle laminates, quite extensive at this point, you should expect a few bubbles here and there. I assume it is down to the thickness of the laminate and gloss accentuating any defects while matte hides them.

I do not know your laminator, but on my Seal 62 Pro you set the pressure relative to the amount of the roll you are using. E.g. 54" rolls use about 80% of the roll, so I keep it just below 90. 60" rolls I set just below 100.

Also, using heat can help with reducing bubbles and silvering.

One last thing, I never run it over speed 4(approx 2,250 sq ft per hour, on a 54" roll).

 

[matze214]

Matte is amazing at hiding defects.

In my experience with motorcycle laminates, quite extensive at this point, you should expect a few bubbles here and there. I assume it is down to the thickness of the laminate and gloss accentuating any defects while matte hides them.

I do not know your laminator, but on my Seal 62 Pro you set the pressure relative to the amount of the roll you are using. E.g. 54" rolls use about 80% of the roll, so I keep it just below 90. 60" rolls I set just below 100.

Also, using heat can help with reducing bubbles and silvering.

One last thing, I never run it over speed 4(approx 2,250 sq ft per hour, on a 54" roll).

Sorry i sayed things wrong.
The Wrinkles and Bubble are in the Matte Laminate. When i laminate the same print, same gas off duration, nearly same motive in the gloss version the Laminate i get the issue.
The Problem occurs while giving 60 degrees heat. Silvering is not an issue but bubbles in a line form accouring every inches.

The Laminate is 54" and the Material is 50" could that be the Problem? But its the same when i use the gloss version and there are no problems.

Will try that all tomorrow, thanks everyone who tried to help me!

 

[Stacey K]

Notarealsign guy suggested the cold laminator I have. And I love it! As you can see, it's very caveman-ish. The little screws on top are barely screwed down - just barely enough for there to be pressure. If I have too much pressure then it starts OK but it ends up getting wavey which causes problems. At first I wasted a ton of material because I had too much pressure. The rollers are barely touching, almost like the top one is just sitting on the bottom one, plus a little more. I also use it for applying vinyl to 4x8 sheets etc. I have a sticker on there for my kids and their stupid friends not to adjust because everybody seems to like turning screws LOL

 

[MarkSnelling]

that's pretty unusual to get those issues parallel with the rollers....is the machine "jumping" at all? Sometimes you'll hear the rollers make a small clunk sound caused by the chain which needs to have a link or half a link removed to run smoother.

I'm pretty proud of the guy above who used my favorite line "less is more" with laminating. That is crazy true and I've beaten that drum for 25 years. less tension + less pressure = great output. Usually I'd see problems running right down the middle due to too much pressure causing the top roller to bow....so people see bubbles down the middle and they INCREASE pressure trying to get rid of them but they actually make the problem worse. Same is true with tension....I've seen people add a roll of laminate to the machine and without even running anything they start cranking up the tension on the laminate....then they wonder why their graphics are peeling off the wall or the board won't stay flat....because they've stretched the hell out of the laminate and the laminate is trying to go back to it's original shape.

LESS IS MORE!!!!!!

Speed....you can run as fast or slow as you are comfortable/confident....if you aren't running hot laminate, run the speed you are comfortable at. It should have zero impact on the way the laminate lays down.

 

[Stacey K]

that's pretty unusual to get those issues parallel with the rollers....is the machine "jumping" at all? Sometimes you'll hear the rollers make a small clunk sound caused by the chain which needs to have a link or half a link removed to run smoother.

I'm pretty proud of the guy above who used my favorite line "less is more" with laminating. That is crazy true and I've beaten that drum for 25 years. less tension + less pressure = great output. Usually I'd see problems running right down the middle due to too much pressure causing the top roller to bow....so people see bubbles down the middle and they INCREASE pressure trying to get rid of them but they actually make the problem worse. Same is true with tension....I've seen people add a roll of laminate to the machine and without even running anything they start cranking up the tension on the laminate....then they wonder why their graphics are peeling off the wall or the board won't stay flat....because they've stretched the hell out of the laminate and the laminate is trying to go back to it's original shape.

LESS IS MORE!!!!!!

Speed....you can run as fast or slow as you are comfortable/confident....if you aren't running hot laminate, run the speed you are comfortable at. It should have zero impact on the way the laminate lays down.

If you're talking about me, I'm a girl LOL But you are 100% right, less is more.

I often wonder if I don't have some of the troubles others might have because I don't have any tension issues? The laminate and the vinyl go into the rollers at the same speed and tension. Sometimes I go slow and when I'm in a hurry, I can laminate pretty fast - both with the same results.

 

[JBurton]

Notarealsign guy suggested the cold laminator I have. And I love it!

Really? He pushed you to get the hp, I was pushing for this little guy! That tears it, I'm following you to keep these lies at bay!
But really, you'd ought to start banking some money for the kala mistral. I find the lack of posts asking for help on that machine reassuring.

 

[Stacey K]

Really? He pushed you to get the hp, I was pushing for this little guy! That tears it, I'm following you to keep these lies at bay!
But really, you'd ought to start banking some money for the kala mistral. I find the lack of posts asking for help on that machine reassuring.

LMAO!!!! I guess you are right! So many smart guys on here, it's hard to keep you all straight!

Well now I have something to Google! I would actually like something that I could put the roll of laminate on instead of cutting a piece all the time. Thanks - for your help for the second time on laminators

 

[gnubler]

Notarealsign guy suggested the cold laminator I have. And I love it! As you can see, it's very caveman-ish.

I've been shopping for this laminator for a while now, the 51" model seems to be out of stock everywhere. If anyone finds any availability please let me know or post it on the forum.

 

[JBurton]

I've been shopping for this laminator for a while now, the 51" model seems to be out of stock everywhere. If anyone finds any availability please let me know or post it on the forum.

Blam: https://www.ebay.com/itm/323474876057
I got mine off ebay, probably from a different vendor, but looks identical.

I would actually like something that I could put the roll of laminate on instead of cutting a piece all the time.

Part of the convenience of a 'real' laminator is the ability to not only hold the roll, but to remove the backing at the same rate that the material advances. Not sure about other models, but my gfp has rollers that slip when there is too much tension on the backer take up, so everything advances nice and uniformly. I'd worry that any rigging you do is going to be more of a pain in the neck than an advantage, but nota has some clever ideas too!

 

[DL Signs]

I run a seal 54, and it's bullet proof when using the less is always better rule.
I never use high roller pressure, just enough tension on the laminate and backer take up rolls for them to do their thing, and rarely ever have issues. If I run too fast for the heat to do it's job I get a little silvering on certain lams, those I just run slower. One customer has IJ40 matte vinyl & Avery 3080 matte lam spec'd, usually 30-ish foot runs, those I could run at full speed without any problems, but I usually don't...

 

[DL Signs]

I've been shopping for this laminator for a while now, the 51" model seems to be out of stock everywhere. If anyone finds any availability please let me know or post it on the forum.

Vevor says they're in stock....

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