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Latex 360 color consistency is not there
- Thread starter Andriy
- Start date
If you don't mind me asking, what ended up happening for yourself?
My 310 running .12 is shifting grays to pink on a profile I've been using for a year without worry and every other color is basically spot on. Ive done everything and can't figure it out.
dypinc
New Member
Most likely an issue with your lc/lm head. How much ink have you run through it?
Can you get the grays back to neutral with a onboard calibration or re-linearazation if using a RIP?
The Lc/LM head has 1050 ml fired
Originally I was using Flexi because they said it was software so I switched to Onyx. When I try to Recalibrate in Onyx it says "The printer has an onboard calibration..." which is what everyone says not to do because it doesn't work or hasn't for me.
dypinc
New Member
Unless you see a lot of inconsistency with light grays or other light color you lc/lm printhead is probably okay.
Did you create an new media (not a clone of an existing one) since the last .12 firmware? If so and you found the onboard calibration didn't work for you? As a test I did create one new media, calibrated it and profiled it with since .12 firmware as a test. It did calibrate and profiled correctly but I haven't tested it yet to see when I needed to recalibrate whether it would bring the color back in line.
As for Onyx it saying "The printer has an onboard calibration..." where you trying to recalibrate a media that had been calibrated onboard the printer? If you would create a new media and not do onboard calibration would would Onyx still give you that message? Would Onyx actually know the difference?
It is really only grey that the problem is. Im messing around with some 3M profiles and my grey turn green.
I have never calibrated the media on the printer; is Onyx calibration different than that of the printer?
dypinc
New Member
Other color are certainly off it's just that grey is most noticeable.
In the substrate menu on the printer if calibration says anything other than recommended it has been calibrated with the printer at some time. If that calibration was made before the .12 firmware the media setting is junk and should be removed. You will have to create a new media. Do not clone. Then you can choose to do onboard calibration or do it with Onyx. Some may disagree with me but the linearization and profiling with Onyx leaves a lot to be desired so you will probably do just as good doing it onboard the printer. Of course some media like Textile can not be calibrated on the printer.
I suspect that post .12 firmware onboard calibration and recalibration will be okay. I wouldn't think HP screwed things up that bad but I would have to do a bunch of testing before I would trust onboard recalibration again.
I've done this and it continues to mess up left and right.
Everything was working seemingly well using a Generic pre-set before and now its just hell. How can the Generic vinyl preset have such a strong change? Its supposed to be generic.
Great to see HP acting in a timely manner while everyone has the same problem. Well done, HP. You and your 0 page online help guide are useless.
dypinc
New Member
You can not use any existing media period. At least ones that existed before the last firmware up date and that includes the generic ones.
You have to create a new media. At the very top of each media type list is a setting that says create new media. That is the only thing that will get you correct color.
If you talk directly to a knowledgable (they have some that will answer that don't know sh!t) HP tech they are well aware that the last firmware update made all media settings including the generic ones junk.
Am I correct that you need to use one of the generic profiles as a base- therefore the coloring is going to be off, regardless of whether it is new or not?
I visit New SAV - Choose one as a base (Generic SAV or Backlit Generic SAV)
Doing this is still getting me printing pink instead of grey. Its so far off its not even funny. 5 days with no call back from HP.
dypinc
New Member
Sounds like you figured it out like I said Generic media settings are existing calibration and profiles and will not give you correct color and you can not get them back even with a calibration. Too bad the Generic media settings can not also be deleted since they are no good.
Well at least going forward (for now hopefully) creating new media settings, calibrating and profiling it will get you correct color.
TomK
New Member
Sorry for the junior level question, but can you explain the process us Hp 310 owners need to go through here? I have profiles I've loaded from vendors (Oracal, Grimco, etc) before the .12 firmware upgrade.
What do I have to do on the 310 series to get color accuracy back?
dypinc
New Member
That is one good question that HP needs to address. I can't believe they allow the old (before .12 firmware to be posted) profiles to still be posted when they know fully well that none will give accurate color with the latest firmware. Furthermore with the color fluctuations I have seen with the L360 I would think using downloaded profiles would be very frustrating for those using the printers with no CM onboard. The only way I can see constantly achieving accurate color with any of these printers that have no CM onboard would be to use a RIP with linearization and profiling capabilities along with a spectrometer.
I am not exactly sure what the L310s have color management wise. Could you fill me in? You can create a media setting can't you?
If there are no onboard spectro then you would have to do linearization/calibration and then create a profile with external software. Hopefully your RIP can do both.
Correct Color
New Member
I should probably point out there that the only thing that will truly get you correct color is to hire...
Correct Color.
Then not only do you get Color by Correct Color, you get lifetime free tech support as well, so that you don't have to rely on asking for information online -- which may or may not be accurate -- if you do ever have a color issue.
(Edited to add:
Just as a note though, that's true and it's not true.
What is true is that the ICC profile-making engine -- as opposed to the media profiling routine -- in Onyx isn't one of the best out there. But then neither is the one that HP put into the 360. I'd rate them as about equally substandard, but in different ways.
However, while it is not necessary to use the Onyx ICC-making engine to make profiles with Onyx, you have no choice if you use the machine to build them.
As far as linearization goes, Onyx has by far, hands down, without question the most robust linearization routine of any large format RIP out there. You just have to know how to use it.
The 360, on the other hand, runs an onboard spectro over a 7 patch per color target. I've done enough testing with it to know that by my standards at least, it doesn't even come close.)
dypinc
New Member
Yea right.
You won't even answer my question about what tools and training you give so the when changes occur the end user knows how to deal with them.
Consistant correct color is not a simple as you make it out to be.
I will point out the best way is to learn color management and not have to hire… It's not that difficult and you will be able to deal with issue from hardware, environment, media changes when they happen.
Correct Color
New Member
Hmmmmm...
Not sure I remember you asking me that, but as far as tools, I have an i1Pro2, a DTP70, an Isis, a Barbieri Spectro Swing, and a DTP41T.
I use them according to need, but I still love my DTP70. It's my go-to device.
As far as software, I'm pretty sure that somewhere or another on this forum, I mentioned that my favorite ICC-profile-making engine is the Monaco engine.
As far as training, what I do is put on a classroom discussion at every client's, teaching them what color management actually is, and how it works. For tools, honestly, the most valuable tool everyone gets is my business card, with my cell number, and an admonition that if everything doesn't work exactly as I said it would, to call me.
They get that, and they get it for my lifetime.
Oh, how I wish that was true.
Fact is I've been doing what I do for ten years now, which is color management exclusively for large and grand format printers, world wide. So I have been around the block once or twice, and I'm pretty familiar with most of what's out there in the industry.
And when I first started Correct Color, I figured most of what I read about relinearization and machine drift and all online was true, and pretty soon I'd mostly have a book of repeat business going back doing relinearizations and the like.
So after about a year I started gong back and calling on clients, and every one of them just allowed as how everything was fine. And I'd ask if I could run a test image... and everything was fine.
And then I'd have clients buy new machines, and they'd call me to profile them, and I'd test the old ones just out of curiosity, and they'd still be fine. In one case, seven years later.
Now, my clients are very particular about color, so it's not like they just don't care. And over the years I've seen some color inconsistency issues, sure. But my very extensive experience has shown me that other than with HP printers, color inconsistency can almost always be traced to ink issues, or head voltage. But by far, far, far and away, the facts on the ground are that for well over 90% of the profiles I've written in ten years, my clients have run them without issues until they got rid of the machine.
What is interesting to me in the whole HP 300 series thing is that in thinking on it, I have had in the ten years I've been working as Correct Color three unexplained color inconsistency issues that I was never able to full resolve, and they all involved HP aqueous or latex printers.
My experience has been that almost all color inconsistencies on other machines can be traced to workflow errors, and not to profile-related issues.
Well, that's certainly your opinion and you're entitled to it, and if it works for you, that's great.
But that does not mean it works for everyone.
And even if it does, you still have to learn from someone.
And if a client tells me they want to learn what I do, fine. I hold nothing back while I'm on site. I will teach them absolutely everything I do.
And what happens is that the vast, vast, vast majority of them, after about a half a day, say something to the effect of, "Damn, that's a lot of work. Next machine we get, I'll just call you back out."
And to me that makes sense in most cases. I know the years I have invested in what I do. I know the difference between the profiles I write and stock profiles, and the ones I see written by well-meaning machine operators. And I also know that while yes, once you understand the procedure, the basics of it are relatively straight-forward, that lots of people's eyes glaze over instantly at the beginning.
That doesn't make them stupid, it just makes them not color geeks.
I'd make two points in closing: First is that in this business, profiles are everything.
Absolutely everything. Profiles create your printing dots. They are everything. And of course profiles are not just about color. Just as a small example, black generation is key to many, many aspects of how a profile will create dots in order to achieve varying results.
Just as an example: Roland sells the XR-640, which has light black. Light black is very useful in reducing hue-shift of grey in differing lighting conditions, but the black generation in the stock Versaworks profiles for that machine are written in such a way that it might as well not even have it.
Every single profile I make, I quality check four different ways before I install it. If it fails any of those tests, I remake it.
I'll tell you something: I've been in the business of putting ink onto media since the '70's, and I'm still learning. This is my business, and I stay up on it constantly.
You hire Correct Color, and that's what you get.
Which brings up the second point: The single most important thing every single person in business has to manage is their time. Any time anyone in business invests in doing anything is time they are not doing something else. It's pretty unlikely he's going to stay up on this like I do.
Time devoted to learning color management is time a business owner isn't spending selling, or running his business.
And it's my opinion that Color by Correct Color is a much better investment.
dypinc
New Member
Now I see why your always drumming for business. You picked a very narrow segment of the market. But on the other hand if you were profiling printers more susceptible to hardware, environment, media changes your approach wouldn't work so well. Thus the need for operators of those printers to take a hands on approach to keeping consistent color.
I for one am not very happy with what HP did on the L3xx series. Other than the firmware changes I am convinced that the use of one lc/lm head is the major problem behind the color inconsistencies. Can you say ink starvation and loss of nozzle redundancy. I have had some discussions with HP tech and they will admit that and also advise to add more inter-pass delay. They also will tell you that the optimizer and a printhead closer to the OP head was causing problems, but HP goes and releases it anyhow. I fact I am reevaluating where I can eliminate the use of the lc/mc inks. I think there are a not of banner and sign jobs that don't really need it. Natural grays can then be achieved with the use of black providing you do correct profile generation.
I fully understand your approach and what you are doing, but I have a different option based on all the different printers I have color managed over the last twenty some years. I don't buy you time argument. If you have a color issues be it hardware, media or environment related and you have print jobs lined up you have to deal with it then and now. Most of my clients I have I have because they have had bad color experiences with other printers. Just today I had a job come in that demanded a quick turnaround. Interesting thing it was a yard sign, which I already had a profile where normally graininess would not be a problem , but in this instance it was for a trade show where people would be viewing it up close. After the firmware changes to the L360 I just had not gotten around to creating the kind of profile I wanted for this situation, so in half an hour I had a new linearization and profile created for this kind of viewing. I spent all of about 10 t0 12 minutes on actually reading targets the rest of the time I did something else.
Sorry I haven't replied before now. 80 hour weeks, 3 kids, and a wife that works full-time too.
To answer the question of whether the HP tech solved the problem... yes. And no.
This guy seems to be completely honest about everything which is refreshing. The reason so many people (everyone?) has had problems is because of the firmware upgrade. But he said it was actually the .08 upgrade that did it (the one that first stated "there have been print quality uimprovements made, you'll need to print a few prints and then recalibrate"). Before that, there were major problems with the yellow heads in that the way they were set up they were getting consistent failures well before warranty was up. The .08 firmware competely changed the way the yellow heads fired to fix this issue, and that's why the previous colour calibrations ended up completely redundent. HP didn't make the decision lightly to make such a drastic change, but I'd say that they deemed the failure rate as unacceptable for a commercial machine (replacing thousands of yellow heads under warranty probably helped too). When quizzed he was adamant that such a critical change in future firmware updates would result in many heads having to roll.
As most of us have now been told, any media presets created before the .08 upgrade are useless. He said that in theory a new calibration and making of the ICC profile should have had the colours back to where they should be, but it hasn't worked out that way in the real world. So yeah, scrap all your media presets and do them again (which is why I pushed him about the potential for this happening again, I don't want to make 40 media presets again... again). Interestingly, when I do create a new one, I have been using the "Generic SAV" and it's been perfect, which is at odds to one of the comments above. Maybe these "Generic" presets were updated in the later firmwares so they matched the new yellow jet performance?
So that at least told me what has been going on, and how to get back on track. Unfortunately, as to why each of my medias, that were originally identical, veered off in such different directions, he had no answer. I explained my process, which was starting out by making a preset on standard white poly SAV, and then cloning and running new calibrations for each similar but non-identical media (eg, white mono), and his only guess was that it was the cloning that might have caused problems. In his opinion, cloning is dangerous, and it is best to always start with the Generic preset. He said that because calibrations were intended to bring the colours all in to line, it wouldn't matter if you used a cloned media or a new one, the result should be the same. Cloning a media means that any slight errors or faults will just be passed on to the new media, as opposed to a clean, fresh preset from the Generic.
However, since he can't give an answer to why the shifts were so different for each preset, I'm hedging my bets a bit for now. Originally I had heaps of media presets, even multiple ones for the same media (for some really saturated colours, I made a new preset that was much slower and with very different temp settings to eliminate some slight banding). But these presets drifted inconsistently too just like all the others did. So now I've just made a one-size-fits-all called "SAV - Standard", and I'm only making new presets for medias that are vastly different, like testured wall SAV. The slightly different appearances bourne by the different white points and ink adhesion on the Poly vs Mono vs Cast is something I'll have to live with, as long as I do the calibrations on the same Poly every time. It'll be a lot closer than the frankenstein colours I got from having different media presets. Also, what I have done is made a Test media preset that is identical to the Standard one, and I'll run every now and again and do calibrations with, so after a month or so I can print a test strip with both of them and see if there has been any shift between them.
I hope that helps answer at least some questions. No, we are not crazy. Yes, the colours were playing up. No, it shouldn't happen again. But unfortunately no reason that mine screwed up beyond the expections of what HP figured would happen with that new firmware.
I'll do some tests in a couple of weeks and post any results.
PS, I thought that I'd need external hardware to profile from Onyx, but the guy showed me (mostly) how to do it and it does use the onboard hardware. So things like the linearisations can be done a lot more accurately for starters, and then I can stuff around with the real nerdy stuff like black point compensation etc.
To answer the question of whether the HP tech solved the problem... yes. And no.
This guy seems to be completely honest about everything which is refreshing. The reason so many people (everyone?) has had problems is because of the firmware upgrade. But he said it was actually the .08 upgrade that did it (the one that first stated "there have been print quality uimprovements made, you'll need to print a few prints and then recalibrate"). Before that, there were major problems with the yellow heads in that the way they were set up they were getting consistent failures well before warranty was up. The .08 firmware competely changed the way the yellow heads fired to fix this issue, and that's why the previous colour calibrations ended up completely redundent. HP didn't make the decision lightly to make such a drastic change, but I'd say that they deemed the failure rate as unacceptable for a commercial machine (replacing thousands of yellow heads under warranty probably helped too). When quizzed he was adamant that such a critical change in future firmware updates would result in many heads having to roll.
As most of us have now been told, any media presets created before the .08 upgrade are useless. He said that in theory a new calibration and making of the ICC profile should have had the colours back to where they should be, but it hasn't worked out that way in the real world. So yeah, scrap all your media presets and do them again (which is why I pushed him about the potential for this happening again, I don't want to make 40 media presets again... again). Interestingly, when I do create a new one, I have been using the "Generic SAV" and it's been perfect, which is at odds to one of the comments above. Maybe these "Generic" presets were updated in the later firmwares so they matched the new yellow jet performance?
So that at least told me what has been going on, and how to get back on track. Unfortunately, as to why each of my medias, that were originally identical, veered off in such different directions, he had no answer. I explained my process, which was starting out by making a preset on standard white poly SAV, and then cloning and running new calibrations for each similar but non-identical media (eg, white mono), and his only guess was that it was the cloning that might have caused problems. In his opinion, cloning is dangerous, and it is best to always start with the Generic preset. He said that because calibrations were intended to bring the colours all in to line, it wouldn't matter if you used a cloned media or a new one, the result should be the same. Cloning a media means that any slight errors or faults will just be passed on to the new media, as opposed to a clean, fresh preset from the Generic.
However, since he can't give an answer to why the shifts were so different for each preset, I'm hedging my bets a bit for now. Originally I had heaps of media presets, even multiple ones for the same media (for some really saturated colours, I made a new preset that was much slower and with very different temp settings to eliminate some slight banding). But these presets drifted inconsistently too just like all the others did. So now I've just made a one-size-fits-all called "SAV - Standard", and I'm only making new presets for medias that are vastly different, like testured wall SAV. The slightly different appearances bourne by the different white points and ink adhesion on the Poly vs Mono vs Cast is something I'll have to live with, as long as I do the calibrations on the same Poly every time. It'll be a lot closer than the frankenstein colours I got from having different media presets. Also, what I have done is made a Test media preset that is identical to the Standard one, and I'll run every now and again and do calibrations with, so after a month or so I can print a test strip with both of them and see if there has been any shift between them.
I hope that helps answer at least some questions. No, we are not crazy. Yes, the colours were playing up. No, it shouldn't happen again. But unfortunately no reason that mine screwed up beyond the expections of what HP figured would happen with that new firmware.
I'll do some tests in a couple of weeks and post any results.
PS, I thought that I'd need external hardware to profile from Onyx, but the guy showed me (mostly) how to do it and it does use the onboard hardware. So things like the linearisations can be done a lot more accurately for starters, and then I can stuff around with the real nerdy stuff like black point compensation etc.
dypinc
New Member
What you describe and what the tech told you are exactly the same thing that I have seen. I have been told pretty much the same thing by some of the techs I talked to.
One thing I will add that I have been told by one of the techs. If you are under 12 pass and see color fluctions during the print run it is most likely caused by in starvation in the lc/lm head. Recommended remedies are to use 12 or higher passed, set inter-pass delay for at least 200ms, or consider if you need lc/lm for the job where you might be able to use CMYK only.
There seems to be some confusion about the use of or term Generic.
In the substrate library in the listing of media there for example under SAV is two generic medias listed. These are existing media with a calibration and profile and are junk do not use or clone these.
At the top of media list in for example the SAV library there is + New Self-Adhesive Vinyl, when you open this you have a choice of Generic Self-Adhesive Vinyl or Generic Backlit Self-Adhesive Vinyl. These do not have an old calibration or profile attached. These are the ones to use when creating new media.
One thing I will add that I have been told by one of the techs. If you are under 12 pass and see color fluctions during the print run it is most likely caused by in starvation in the lc/lm head. Recommended remedies are to use 12 or higher passed, set inter-pass delay for at least 200ms, or consider if you need lc/lm for the job where you might be able to use CMYK only.
There seems to be some confusion about the use of or term Generic.
In the substrate library in the listing of media there for example under SAV is two generic medias listed. These are existing media with a calibration and profile and are junk do not use or clone these.
At the top of media list in for example the SAV library there is + New Self-Adhesive Vinyl, when you open this you have a choice of Generic Self-Adhesive Vinyl or Generic Backlit Self-Adhesive Vinyl. These do not have an old calibration or profile attached. These are the ones to use when creating new media.
Cool, it's those "New" ones at the top that I'm using, so should be good to go.
My tech didn't mention the lc/lm thing, probably because it's irrelevant to the consistency issue where different media presets print differently. Would have been nice to know though. It'd suck to have to go 12 pass, however on most media we're at 10 pass anyway so we can get 110%. So not the worst slow-down.