Lawn Care logo help

[TimToad]

The guy drives in your shop and wants you t put a nice brand on his red truck doors. Sheesh! you guys talk him to death with your philosophy on business and layout, Toad gives him a medical history survey to fill out, come on, a quick rough and you get to work. No wonder the big discussion on minimum money on a job. You guys would take forever and all 99% of you are going to do is throw some type out there and put want he wants.
And please if I see another modern take on a tree or leaf that you saw on the internet I am going to puke.
But to tell the truth, this OP is not going to make a better layout no matter how much is said or shown. They might ask Visual800 what fonts he used and make them white to go over red. They won't use my idea because it is not a computer font or clipart that can be purchased for $49.99 this month on a special deal.
Just read where Uber is starting a lawn care business. Maybe even put snow plows on the front of their cars in winter. Just call when you have snow and they come right over.

Forgive some of us for actually taking our craft and vocation seriously enough to want to practice it to our fullest potential and to our client's maximum benefit. Our shop does a fair amount of logo design that extends beyond our client's signage needs, so we treat that part of our business with a high attention to detail and finding ways we can minimize miscommunication and guesswork. Every misunderstanding or misreading of the client's needs on a logo design cuts into the budget that in a small business scenario is usually under $1,000.

I've never met a well educated or professional graphic designer with experience who doesn't do something similar or at least ask a series of probing questions to determine the scope of the project.

I'd be curious to know what other signmakers who also provide graphic design services do to collect the necessary information from clients before starting on a logo design project.

 

[Gino]

Well, not to sound petty or condescending, but if some guy/gal at the store..... any kinda store, handed me a paper with 20 questions on it, I'd say a few words to them, turn around and throw the paper on the floor as I exited the place. I wasn't gonna bring this up, but since you asked..... to me, that would be a powerplay on the storeowner's part. That's like saying, I don't have time to talk to you, cause I don't know if you're serious or not, but here's a questionnaire you can fill out, if you wanna spend money with us. Until then, don't waste my time. I'm sure you don't mean it like that, but that's how it sounded to me.... instantly.

If I can't take 10 or 15 minutes to talk with a potential customer about layouts, designs, logos or any part of a venture, then why be in a peoples' kinda business, which needs to gather information ??

I usually discuss the various types of logos available, the various costs for the different kinds and then do a quick thumbnail or two, to show them, I'm their man.

Taking your craft seriously, does not necessarily equate to making this part of the procedure seem like take a number and wait your turn. Over the years, we've done our fair share of logos and made some good money on them. Usually at least $800 or $900 but sometimes into the $2,000 and $3,000's. Seems the higher you charge, the more the serious ones want to deal with you. However, personally asking the do's and don'ts of these people is a lot more comforting than answering your questionnaire. If it works, then more power to ya, but I'd never stoop to that.

 

[Johnny Best]

Hey Toad, that's a far jump getting off your high horse. That would be a good drawing of a toad on a horse.
And back to subject, the OP gave enough info as to what they needed to be lettered on the truck door.
Glad you are so professional.

 

[TimToad]

Well, not to sound petty or condescending, but if some guy/gal at the store..... any kinda store, handed me a paper with 20 questions on it, I'd say a few words to them, turn around and throw the paper on the floor as I exited the place. I wasn't gonna bring this up, but since you asked..... to me, that would be a powerplay on the storeowner's part. That's like saying, I don't have time to talk to you, cause I don't know if you're serious or not, but here's a questionnaire you can fill out, if you wanna spend money with us. Until then, don't waste my time. I'm sure you don't mean it like that, but that's how it sounded to me.... instantly.

If I can't take 10 or 15 minutes to talk with a potential customer about layouts, designs, logos or any part of a venture, then why be in a peoples' kinda business, which needs to gather information ??

I usually discuss the various types of logos available, the various costs for the different kinds and then do a quick thumbnail or two, to show them, I'm their man.

Taking your craft seriously, does not necessarily equate to making this part of the procedure seem like take a number and wait your turn. Over the years, we've done our fair share of logos and made some good money on them. Usually at least $800 or $900 but sometimes into the $2,000 and $3,000's. Seems the higher you charge, the more the serious ones want to deal with you. However, personally asking the do's and don'ts of these people is a lot more comforting than answering your questionnaire. If it works, then more power to ya, but I'd never stoop to that.

When petty, ignorant, condescending people say "Well, not to sound petty or condescending", that's exactly what they mean to be, so you're not fooling anyone around here. Your post is riddled with the usual petty, condescending, denigrating language which turns people off and only confirms why other posters have publicly stated that the boards would be better and more well attended if you left. Which is a distinction only you have earned here.

Your bias against me prevents you from reading and clearly understanding whatever I post because you're too busy looking for what it is you want to insult me about and disagree with.

I could give a schitt about what you think or any of the others who work on the same premise. This response is meant for those I actually care about here who engage each other in positive, supportive ways on a daily basis. I participate here only to satisfy my desire to share and build camaraderie with others who have advanced past petty, intentionally divisive arguments. That doesn't include you. I know enough about your MO to take you off ignore whenever I see that you've responded to one of my posts.

Not that you'll accept it, but the questionnaire is provided in ADDITION to spending some initial consultation time with the client. Many clients walk in without a full understanding of what a graphic designer needs from them, have a limited budget amount they have devoted to getting something created, are intimidated by being put on the spot to answer a bunch of questions, get nervous in front of others, are easily distracted by the noise and eye candy in a busy shop, sent their request via email so they aren't even in the shop, or just don't have time to have some rudimentary layout scribbled out on a cocktail napkin for them.

Nobody at our shop is projecting the image or impression that the client is wasting our time, just the opposite. We're being and are almost always perceived as thorough, conscious of their needs and wanting to be as helpful as possible.

 

[Rick]

A guy walks into a sign shop and says I want a sign.. I start designing... hand him the layout... he loves it! Except one problem, I designed a plumbers logo and wrap, this guy owns a Greek restaurant... you have to ask questions...

I have a similar design brief as Toads. Why? Well for one thing, I only design, I have to get paid for my time. Through the years I have had clients go back on what they said, change their minds completely or has family or friends have too much say. With no written proof, it's very difficult to ask for more money when the client does not give me a target to hit. There are several ways I present that design brief, mostly, I talk them through it, fill it out myself, then send it in with a design contract... it's part of my contract. If I achieve the goals on the brief and contract, I get paid.

I have worked at plenty of sign shops where I cranked out "logos" or logo-ized layouts with no design brief. For the most part, I give them what they want - which is usually a short-sighted attempt at branding disguised as trying to sell vinyl graphics or electric sign. I can spew out pretty layouts all day - doesn't mean it's good for the client, it's code compliant or that they will like it... you have to ask questions...

This particular logo seems to be an attempt to rebrand this company to sell door and trailer graphics, the designer\ should have asked them a few questions, now she's going to waste more time hitting a moving target and now having a client question her design abilities... not a good place to be,

 

[Gino]

Talk about not listening.........?? You treat this site, the same way you treat your potential customers.... with a pompous attitude that you are some kinda Sign Freak. Nowhere was I condescending to you, unless you dissected each and every word and made new meanings out of them the way you always do. You have a natural talent for misreading things and twisting it around to fit your own agenda. You're good at it. Give ya that.

I am not biased towards you. I just don't think like you and in most cases agree with your background, but not what you say, anymore. You wanna read me the riot act and act so humble and loveable and you're just not anything remotely like that. You do as most of your kind does and like I said, that is to distort the truth and repeat it as you see fit.

No one ever said I was trying to fool anyone, that's why ya either like me or ya don't. I'm not here for a popularity contest. Many can attest to that, unlike you.... you want people to drool over all your infinite wisdom and sayings. Well, news flash. It ain't happenin'.

You questionaire is still a slap in anyone's face who listens to how important you are and you not have the time to talk to them. The rest of what you said is just garbage. Do it however you want, but don't be putting words in my mouth.

As for Rick's input..... I never said you shouldn't get paid. I think you should be paid.... and paid well for logos and intricate designs which go beyond google crap. However, gathering the information is part of the getting paid process. You don't just spurt out a number, expect them to pay ya and go on your merry way. You need to cultivate a new client, sometimes in a matter of minutes or a 1/2 an hour. Schmoozing is part of that process and handing someone a questionnaire is just dumb in my opinion. You talk with the person or people in front of you. You present yourself, how professional you are, show them a cross-reference of your work and sell them on a block of time to do their job. You explain your policy(s) and terms and the process begins or it doesn't. They might walk and go elsewhere, but at least you tried. Once you have a signed contract, you are well paid for your services and products. That's when you can ask your do's and don'ts and even have a small form to fill out.
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Doing this for all these years, one tends to develop a knowing of what to do next, ask next and when to reach out your hand for the money. You get to know how to read people and ya hafta do it quickly. Whether you're working on an $800 sign or a $2,500 logo or a $120,000 project.... you reach the end all the same way, by having all of your terms and policies spelled out and explaining everything in full, up front.

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[TimToad]

Hey Toad, that's a far jump getting off your high horse. That would be a good drawing of a toad on a horse.
And back to subject, the OP gave enough info as to what they needed to be lettered on the truck door.
Glad you are so professional.

You make this about me all you want. At least then you'll be in the same company as somebody who multiple posters INCLUDING the former owner of the site think have outlived their usefulness to the boards.

The subject is how can we as providers of graphic design and signage help the OP and others better match what we produce with what they asked for or really want.

If the client had a fleet of 25 trucks needing graphics, a 20,000 square foot warehouse he wanted a large sign for, 30 employees needing business cards, wanting graphics for a website, etc. anybody with a sense of commitment to fully servicing their client's needs would do more than scratch out something on a scrap of paper in a few minutes after a perfunctory conversation.

 

[AKwrapguy]

Hello!
I recently made a truck logo for a company and the customer is being critical about it. He isn't sure of the colors but I'm stuck with what else to do. Any input would help.
Thank you!

So, here are the issues that I see off the top of my head.

First it's too big for that door. Maybe look at reducing the size about 50%
It looks like you have three or four different fonts. Try to limit it to 1 main font and a similar one for the phone number.
For lawn care I wold agree that green would be the go-to color but on a red truck it doesn't work well. maybe look at changing the color scheme to something that will pop off the red like maybe white/grey's or yellow orange .

That's it for the big changes...

For the more nit-picky things....
For me the tree is very feminine and doesn't match the rest of the logo
The grass and tree should be the same color so that it flows together
Try taking the 'free estimates' and 'fully insured' and putting them on the same plane, in an all caps font (something san-serif) and have it under the phone number and increase the kerning to like 100 and see what that looks like maybe use a '•' (alt+7)in between .
The phone number looks like it has an inner stroke and an outer stroke? Trying doing an just an outer stroke.

 

[Mosh]

Too big...try some black shadow/oultines to make it pop.

 

[AKwrapguy]

Here's a basic layout

 

[Mosh]

Cover all the bases!!!

 

[TimToad]

Cover all the bases!!!

That one belongs in the letter spacing tutorial.

 

[Mosh]

That one belongs in the letter spacing tutorial.

Can't go wrong using the three best fonts of all time...My cousin set this up and he can draw real good!!! Spacing? Kerning..I know not of this!!!

 

[TimToad]

Can't go wrong using the three best fonts of all time...My cousin set this up and he can draw real good!!! Spacing? Kerning..I know not of this!!!

If it doesn't have Papyrus, its shite.

 

[Rick]

As for Rick's input..... I never said you shouldn't get paid. I think you should be paid.... and paid well for logos and intricate designs which go beyond google crap. However, gathering the information is part of the getting paid process. You don't just spurt out a number, expect them to pay ya and go on your merry way. You need to cultivate a new client, sometimes in a matter of minutes or a 1/2 an hour. Schmoozing is part of that process and handing someone a questionnaire is just dumb in my opinion. You talk with the person or people in front of you. You present yourself, how professional you are, show them a cross-reference of your work and sell them on a block of time to do their job. You explain your policy(s) and terms and the process begins or it doesn't. They might walk and go elsewhere, but at least you tried. Once you have a signed contract, you are well paid for your services and products. That's when you can ask your do's and don'ts and even have a small form to fill out.

I never assumed anything on your comment - I think I simply stated that I only design, that fact means I can't make it up by selling a sign later.

The survey - or design brief - is standard graphic design stuff as far back as I can remember - at least since 1980, part of the process... it's not typical sign shop process - but it actually is, we just go about it in different ways. In my business I try to build relationships with companies who have multiple locations and layers of management, I meet one person and usually have to go up the chain of command qualifying myself to multiple departments. My nature is that I avoid schmoozing because I don't have the patience to kiss that much arse. I may have a few decision makers so having things on record keeps the project on task... when something comes up, I whip out my brief and we start all over again. I would do the same thing for a mom and pop business because it gets me to my goal faster... I hate wasted time, in my type of work, time is what I sell. I would not be cost effective to try and guess what a client wants, get it wrong, then haggle with the client over how they tried to explain it... it's on paper.

My pricing structure is based on hourly time and/or percentage of budget. If they don't have a budget, I have to develope one - again, that takes time and information. My current large client is a property management company who purchased 1400 properties a few years ago. It took over a year to design the standard. Its a rebrand of all the properties. They have 3 levels of management and then the projects managers all over the country who give me information via a dreaded survey... without the survey filled out completely I can only go so far with the layouts. I can not get personal with 1400 property managers, 40+ real estate agents, 8 regional managers and 3 corporate managers, I systemized my process years ago so they can afford it and I get paid for the time I put into it. This current client tried having sign shops doing all the design workt and it was a disaster... they all tried selling them signs - they needed more than that.

Some sign shops should not be selling logos...

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

I hate when a customer asks to see a design for a bid and I don't want to charge them anything for it so doubting they will even order it I come up with some quick crap. Next thing I know they end up going with it and I'm stuck making a $3000 sign with a 15-min design and I feel like I want to come up with something better. I aint going back to the customer saying hey, "You approved of everything but it's actually crap..lets go through the design process again" Lol

 

[signbrad]

LiteBriteLauren,
I appreciate that you posted your design for constructive criticism. There are a number of talented and knowledgeable people on this forum. The only danger may be that you could be discouraged by the feedback. But if your skin is a little tough you will certainly benefit.
Rick, the Certified Circle Designer, was comprehensive in touching on a number of areas that could be tweaked. I want to elaborate on a couple of points.

Logo design should not include clipart
What is a logo? Well-known designer Michael Bierut said in his book, How To, that a logo is "the simplest form of communication. In essence, it is a signature, a way to say, 'This is me.' " https://www.amazon.com/Graphic-Desi...2457686&sr=1-1&keywords=how+to+michael+beirut
One dictionary defines a logo as “a symbol that represents an organization or company, used, for example, in its advertisements or on its products.” A company owns its logo or logos. Many logos enjoy trademark protection. If someone else uses a company's logo it is likely a trademark infringement.
A logo design should not incorporate clipart. If a clipart image is part of a company logo, then how can the company own the logo? Most clipart services offer the use of copyright protected artwork and photographs for a fee. But they are not generally selling ownership of the images. They are only selling a license to use them, and the license may have limitations. For example, iStockphoto, in its license agreement, specifically forbids the use of its images as part of a logo design or a branding scheme. This makes sense. If company logo could include a piece of artwork that is already owned by someone else, then the company would be in the odd position of not owning its own logo. Further, a competing company could buy the same artwork for its logo.
A logo design should be original and not include copyrighted images. If we sell someone something that we don't own, then they can't own it either.
Of course, clipart is useful and has its place in sign work. But not in logo design.
A sign layout is not a logo, though it may incorporate a logo.

Create a hierarchy of importance
Determine what the most important element is in the composition and make it dominate. Let nothing else compete with it. Some designers call this the "entry point" to the design. It's what the viewer should see first. The idea is to control the order in which the viewer sees the elements in the layout. Things that are of lesser importance should be assigned second or third place. Think in terms of foreground, middle ground, background, like in a landscape painting. Without a clear hierarchy, a composition will suffer from elements that conflict. The layout will take on a "busy" look.
Rarely should a phone number compete for attention with a company name. A phone number should be clearly subordinated.
A good discussion of the need for a hierarchy of importance in a sign layout can be found in the book Mastering Layout, by Mike Stevens. https://www.amazon.com/Mastering-Layout-Art-Eye-Appeal/dp/091138068X/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8

Choose letter styles carefully
Sign design is unique in that so much depends on legibility at a distance. Certain letter styles that may look fine on a printed page may be weak on a sign. Many of the romans are this way. The problem is that the thin strokes of many romans tend to disappear as the viewing distance increases. And using the "bold" version of a roman may not be much of an improvement. As an experiment lay several different weights of a letter in Times Roman on top of each other. You will see that there is very little variation in the thin strokes. Most of the variation is in the heavy strokes. Time Roman looks great on newsprint in body copy, but a sign lettered in all Times Roman has a weak, anemic look, and at a distance, its legibility is seriously compromised.
The difference between the thick and the thin parts of a roman is called "contrast." Letters with greater contrast tend to be harder to read on sign work and should be used sparingly. In the days of hand-painted signs, it was easy for a sign painter to improve the legibility of a roman by simply thickening the thin strokes on the fly while painting the letters. Modifying a roman today is not so easy from a computer keyboard.


Brad in Kansas City

 

[visual800]

....uhhh what were we talking about on this post?

 

[HDvinyl]

<insert Johnny Best drawing of a trainwreck>

 

[Marlene]

you win Gino, all of us who take our jobs seriously will for now on throw together any old thing with no regard to what the customer needs to promote their business. we will use hack font and clipart. we will take no interest in their business and will pound out as fast as we can horrible looking work. no longer will we use our knowledge of design and marketing as part of what makes us special compared to the guy with a circuit in his mom's basement. we are sign makers and that is it, no knowledge of anything needed to do this job.