Looking for Paint suggestions

[moonlightgraphics]

Good Morning All..

I have a question to throw out to you all.

I have been in business for 2 years and have used Behr Ultra Preimum Satin Finish Paint and Primer for ALL of my outdoor signs. I am using MSO Signboard also. I have had NO issues at all until very recently.

I have 2 jobs that I am having problems with. One is simple Black vinyl (Oracle 651) on a 2'x16' painted White sign.

The other is a double sided 4'x8' sign that is 2 color painted Black and Orange with Orange over White vinyl, as well as Black vinyl applied to it (ALL Oracle 651)

For some unknown reason the vinyl will NOT stick! The black on white is peeling on almost every letter. This sign was completed last September and installed shortly after.

The mulit-color sign has not been delivered to the client as of yet because of the non adhering vinly.

I purchase ALL of my paint at Home Depot and have them do all of the custom color mixing.

I have contacted Behr and the rep told me that their product is not for that use. I have had excellent results with the exception of these 2 jobs.
Behr has offered to refund all of the money I spent on the
ANY help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Rich
Moonlight Graphics
West Branch MI

 

[Jillbeans]

Are you using latex paint?
Some latex paints have a silicone-y type additive that makes vinyl not want to adhere.
I only use oil-based paints (and Oracal 751 or higher) when doing a vinyl sign.
Love....Jill

 

[d fleming]

It's a high fastball inside and Jill takes it outa da park!

 

[Billct2]

Since you've been using this combination of materials for a couple years with no problems (that you know of) it's entirely possible the paint forumla has been changed, and like Jill said a lots of these latex paints have additives to keep thme clean and mildew free, which also means vinyl won't stick.
I also agree with Jill, I use oil based enamels & cast vinyl for all outdoor permanent signs.

 

[moonlightgraphics]

Thanks Jill,

It's Acrylic Latex Enamel. The concern is that I have been using it for almost 2 years without incident!

Rich

 

[Gino]

Welcome from PA................

 

[OldPaint]

latex paint, in general their formulations and quality control change often.
whereas oil based paints tend to be the same from batch to batch AND THERE ARE NO SILICONES ADDED, unless your buying some mildew resistant oil based paint.
latex paint never really enters the substrate, it lays on top of it. oil on wood.....penetrates and bites int the wood.

 

[moonlightgraphics]

So then I guess I'm back to my original question.... Reccommendations on paint

Thanks!

Rich

 

[Si Allen]

Industrial oil base enamels paints! (Not the crap for home do it yourselfers!)

 

[Mosh]

Acrylic Latex Enamel and Ora 651....LOL. Both designed for short term use.

Spray your blanks with Mathews paint and use orc 751 for a quality sign that will last for years and years. BUT be ready to pay for quality, since you are used to the cheapest vinyl and house paint fropm the depot!!

 

[BIGMAX]

I've only been working with vinyl for the past or so years. Prior to that, everything I painted. Through trial and error, oil base is the best in the long run. Most suppliers can offer primed "wood' substrates. I have seen signs still in use that I painted 10-15 years ago.Most customers can be sold on the "QUALITY" DIFFERENCE. Good Luck !

 

[moonlightgraphics]

Well, to bring this back up... The Paint is NOT peeling, the vinyl just does not want to stick.

On another sidenote, I was told by Behr that I I needed to thoroughly clean (with a mild detergent and water) and allow to fully dry. Well I have done that too, and now have more wasted vinyl.

I'm totally LOST! I can not find anyone that can custom tint Oil Based paint.

Again, thanks for your suggestions.

Rich

 

[visual800]

I have not had issues with vinyl on latex. Gotta make sure the latex is very smooth. One alternative you may want to consider is painting the background and cutting vinyl mask for the lettering spray or roll it and rip it off wet.

 

[round man]

Not to sound like a smarta$$,..but have you considered trying to learn basic color theory and mixing your own tints?,...when I first stared as an apprentice sign painter it was one of the first things required as a student sign writer,...seems like it couldn't hurt any,...

 

[Techman]

Latex will work. But it has to be gloss and proper;y dried.. Flat will never work long term.

 

[Z SIGNS]

Research is part of making signs.

This is what Oracal says

Can I apply pressure-sensitive films over latex painted surfaces?
Be very cautious when applying vinyl films to flat finish latex painted surfaces. Heavily tinted latex paints contain surfactants (soap-like chemicals) that leach onto the surface throughout its life, causing adhesive failure. Latex paints also contain plasticizers which can migrate to the adhesives in many pressure sensitive films, also causing failure. For exterior vinyl applications over a painted surface, we recommend the use of oil-based gloss enamel, or acrylic gloss enamel coatings. For interior vinyl applications over latex painted surfaces, we would recommend an eggshell or satin finish. Surfaces which have been recently painted, always allow at least 3 weeks curing time

As far as getting the right color in good paint you need to learn how to do yourself (which might not be practical for you right now) or use a real paint supplier like an auto paint supply store or another supplier in your area that caters to professional painters.Take your color samp to them and they should be able to help you.
You can still make a nice sign using home depot latex by using visual800's suggestion.You would be making a longer lasting sign and have more fun at the same time.

Hope this helps

 

[OldPaint]

you want suggestions??? BUT WILL YOU DO ANY OF THEM????
as an OLD SIGN PAINTER......i found the best paint for any outdoor MDO SIGN to be PRIMED WITH KILZ,0il base, 2 coats. lightly sand with 220-240 sandpaper. wipe it down with a rag lightly coated in 91% alcohol. then go to an AUTOMOTIVE PAINT STORE, DUPONT, SHERWIN WILLIAMS, MARTIN SENIOR, and buy a quart of ACRYLIC ENAMEL paint and get the hardener and reducer for it. SPRAY PAINT THE PANELS.........in the florida sun, i have painted MDO, like this and an hour later i was lettering on it with paint. i have some of these boards 5-8 years......and no problems.

 

[insigniagraphics]

I, too use only latex paints for all of my signage. Have been for 10+ years now. The only times that a problem like that might arise would be if the paint was anything but high-gloss or semi-gloss, as this creates a nice, solid surface for the vinyl to stick. the glossier, the better. Also, latex paint does ooze some sort of oily residue, if not allowed to sun-dry for at least a day, or if they are painted too late in the day whereas the dew might settle on the surface, causing the moisture to actually penetrate the paint. In any case, we always try to let the paint cure for as long as possible before applying vinyl. preferrably several days to a week, if possible. If not, it's very important to let the paint cure at a high temp (our best friend here in FL is mr. sunshine), then cool completely. Helps the paint to crystallize more quickly. Paint manufacturers will tell you that latex paint is not technically cured until about 2 weeks out, but the aforementioned techniques are ways around it. Always spray and wipe down with windex or some simple green before lettering. We use latex paint here as it tends to have better longevity in high temp areas due to its abitlity to expand and contract with the material. Additionally, a good high-gloss latex, in my experience, does not tend to haze or chalk out as quickly as your standard sign enamels. (like one-shot, ronan, etc.) easy to clean, easy to spray (airless), eco-friendly,and you don't go home smelling like a refinery after clean-up.
Just my humble experience.
Then again, some people still use rotary phones.

 

[Jillbeans]

I use Ronan Bulletin enamel as a background paint.
More and more, I buy aluminum composite in the color of choice and use that.
If the color is not available, I use factory-finished MDO, scuff sand it, and paint with the aforementioned Ronan.
I seal the hell out of the edges with TiteBond 2 wood glue and Kilz primer.

 

[fresh]

I've been using Sherwin Williams All Surface Enamel lately with good results... but I just switched from One-Shot a few months ago, and I haven't used it with vinyl yet. So I don't know if this will solve your problems.... I do like it though, and the fact that I can just go pick up a quart when I need it is awesome.