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Lowballers!! Aaarrgh!!!
- Thread starter brdss
- Start date
J Hill Designs
New Member
OldPaint
New Member
somewhere some how, i dont remember exactly when, sometime after the vinyl cutters showed up in everyones basement or garage.........people started selling SIGNS based on the cost of material used. this is STUPID. look at from a SIGN PAINTERS view.
1. cost of paint(1980's)$12 a gallon
2. cost of brushes, $10-20 each.
3. cost of a gallon of gas $1.25
4. cost for new vehicle $7200.
now you see the expense side of this line of work back then, now these are the prices we used to get for work.
1.set of mags $150-$250
2. 4 x 8 mdo single sided plain lettering only $250-$300 sheet of MDO then was $35.00.
3.4 x 8 MDO with art work.....$300-$400.
4. 18 x 24 signs on aluminum, $45 each single sided
5. wall murals $10 a sq ft and up, depending on artwork.
6. truck doors per set, $150-$300.
7. stock car lettering simple 3 numbers, 2-3 sponsors no artwork......$175-$250
and i have done 3-4 of these in one 8 hour day.
8. boat lettering nothing less the $150....and i based my pricing on the length of the boat.hehehehe
9. 2 x 8 ft hand painted canvas banner $160 for plain lettering. artwork add more.
my year end SUPPLIES COST was for the most part was maybe 1-5% of my total income from signs. most sign work was on existing windows, walls vehicles, so no substrate cost. paint, turps, and brushs was Cost Of Doing Business.
i dont get it how you spend $20-30k for equipment, $5-10k a year for material, work 8-14 hours aday.......and sell stuff FOR WAY LESS THEN i did 30 years ago.........WHEN EVERYTHING cost less and i made more profit.
1. cost of paint(1980's)$12 a gallon
2. cost of brushes, $10-20 each.
3. cost of a gallon of gas $1.25
4. cost for new vehicle $7200.
now you see the expense side of this line of work back then, now these are the prices we used to get for work.
1.set of mags $150-$250
2. 4 x 8 mdo single sided plain lettering only $250-$300 sheet of MDO then was $35.00.
3.4 x 8 MDO with art work.....$300-$400.
4. 18 x 24 signs on aluminum, $45 each single sided
5. wall murals $10 a sq ft and up, depending on artwork.
6. truck doors per set, $150-$300.
7. stock car lettering simple 3 numbers, 2-3 sponsors no artwork......$175-$250
and i have done 3-4 of these in one 8 hour day.
8. boat lettering nothing less the $150....and i based my pricing on the length of the boat.hehehehe
9. 2 x 8 ft hand painted canvas banner $160 for plain lettering. artwork add more.
my year end SUPPLIES COST was for the most part was maybe 1-5% of my total income from signs. most sign work was on existing windows, walls vehicles, so no substrate cost. paint, turps, and brushs was Cost Of Doing Business.
i dont get it how you spend $20-30k for equipment, $5-10k a year for material, work 8-14 hours aday.......and sell stuff FOR WAY LESS THEN i did 30 years ago.........WHEN EVERYTHING cost less and i made more profit.
J Hill Designs
New Member
AND you had to walk through 2 feet of snow, uphill both ways, carrying 2 cords of wood...
ucmj22
New Member
SignManiac
New Member
Well I was around back in that day and I can say that I was charging double what Old Paint was getting back then. Made some sick money because there were very few talented painters back then. Now there must be 2,000,000 machines running around printing at wholesale prices. Technology is a double edge sword.
Mosh
New Member
So what you all are saying is you are mad cause someone out-prices you? We get
$120 for a 4x8, 14oz printed one side, grommetts and SEWN HEM ON ALL FOUR SIDES...
NOT A TAPE JOB!
Guess if you can't compete you should find something else to sell, BTW been in business 20+ years
so you would have a long wait if you were waiting for me to price myself out of busness!
$120 for a 4x8, 14oz printed one side, grommetts and SEWN HEM ON ALL FOUR SIDES...
NOT A TAPE JOB!
Guess if you can't compete you should find something else to sell, BTW been in business 20+ years
so you would have a long wait if you were waiting for me to price myself out of busness!
OldPaint
New Member
i agree with you on that, and i quoted the prices back then on the low side, because these people today would not believe the PROFIT we put in our pockets without spending it on supplies and equipment!!!!!!! if i would said i got $450 for stock car(which i have) no one would belive it. outa the $450, i had less then $20 in paint and turps. get $500 for a 4 x 8 on MDO, did that more often the the $250 ones. double sided MOD with artwork....$800 easy money.
OH ANDDDDDDD.........the time frame, for most of this work, wasnt TOMORROW, most of my work back then was on a month to month......waiting list!!!!!! those TOMORROW jobs, got charged DOUBLE.........the going rate....
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ucmj22
New Member
no one is mad that someone is out pricing them. It is a matter of volume that brings your price down. If i were to ask you for a sandblasted redwood sign you wouldnt be able to have prices 50% below market retail prices because you are not set up for that product. The fact is that most sign shops are (or try to be) jack of all trades. so when they get an order for a banner, they are running 1 banner. if there is 30 minutes to layout the banner and get approval, thats $30. 10 min to change material on the printer, load the file in to the rip and change settings, now were up to $40. 15 minutes to print the banner, $55. 35 minutes to trim and finish, $90. 32 SqFt printed material cost $14. Total = $104
So in a normal printshop that isnt volume printing, $120 nets a proffit of $16 for 55 min of work. These numbers are rough, and different for everyone and every project, But I hope you can see how many shops cant afford a blanket charge of roughly 3.75 psf.
SignManiac
New Member
One of the most valuable lessons I learned early on in this business was from an 80 year old sign painter back in 1974. "If you're gonna work for nothing, you might as well go fishing."
I also had a client who was a self made millionaire, and he told me the reason I was so busy all the time was because I wasn't charging enough. He was right to a degree. I doubled my prices that year and it made no difference. I was still just as busy but making two times the money from before.
There is no shame in making money or profit. That is the point of being in business. Those that don't make a profit with go out in flames or burn out from too much work for too little money.
There are two arts in the business. The art of designing and the art of making money. Learn both!!!
I also had a client who was a self made millionaire, and he told me the reason I was so busy all the time was because I wasn't charging enough. He was right to a degree. I doubled my prices that year and it made no difference. I was still just as busy but making two times the money from before.
There is no shame in making money or profit. That is the point of being in business. Those that don't make a profit with go out in flames or burn out from too much work for too little money.
There are two arts in the business. The art of designing and the art of making money. Learn both!!!
J Hill Designs
New Member
threeputt
New Member
You know, the other day I was looking at some old job orders from the eighties and nineties and was amazed at the prices we were getting then.
There is some truth to it. Today I've got more invested than then, but technology is driving some market forces that depress sign prices.
For the non-discriminating sign buyer, it really is "how much per sq. ft."?
Fortunately for me, the competition around here doesn't put much stock into doing well thought-out layouts. We do.
Good layout takes a bit more time and talent. If you haven't got it, then you're stuck pretty much competing in the "per sq. ft." arena, because you haven't got a chance with discerning sign buyers.
A well-designed sign more than compensates it's buyer (for the additional money spent) in the sign's effectiveness.
There is some truth to it. Today I've got more invested than then, but technology is driving some market forces that depress sign prices.
For the non-discriminating sign buyer, it really is "how much per sq. ft."?
Fortunately for me, the competition around here doesn't put much stock into doing well thought-out layouts. We do.
Good layout takes a bit more time and talent. If you haven't got it, then you're stuck pretty much competing in the "per sq. ft." arena, because you haven't got a chance with discerning sign buyers.
A well-designed sign more than compensates it's buyer (for the additional money spent) in the sign's effectiveness.
SameDay Signs
New Member
Pricing varies! It depends on the overhead and everything else as mentioned 100's of times on this site. I personally sell F/C banners at $4 to public and $1.95sq & up for wholesale orders. $4 sq ft in my area in very competive but we also don't pay $2500 a month for rent where we are at.
Bottom line is you shouldn't worry what others are charing only what you want to make. If you are happy with it and think its a deal then don't worry. When everyone stops coming in then consider changing some pricing but until that you will never keep all your customers period even if they are happy with the work but on the bright side there are always more customers to get as well.
Bottom line is you shouldn't worry what others are charing only what you want to make. If you are happy with it and think its a deal then don't worry. When everyone stops coming in then consider changing some pricing but until that you will never keep all your customers period even if they are happy with the work but on the bright side there are always more customers to get as well.
DRamm76
New Member
This is all rapidly falling into a "sad but true" scenario I'm afraid. It happens on every aspect of the industry, and unfortunately, unless you stick to your guns and stand behind the fact that you will be providing a product of higher quality, you'll lose out in the long run. The second you give in and meet that discount you're never going to be able to back track.
I recently had a company (NOT A SIGN SHOP) come to me looking to buy an XC. I gave them pricing and information and they seemed really interested and then they disappeared. I tried to follow up a few times but never heard back from them. I stopped in and an employee told me they never had any intention of buying a printer. They got hosed big time on 100 4 x 8 banners by getting charged $16 psf and because they were a "huge outfit" someone thought they could get that price from them. The company didnt know better so they paid the sign shop. Needless to say they had another sign shop stop in telling them he would have done it much cheaper. They did their research and found out the cost to produce and they were livid.
From a sales side, I can honestly say I have seen more and more corporations bringing printers in house. The number one reason we get (and this may sting a little) "We are paying too much for a product of very little quality"
I hate to say it, but far too many people are focusing too much on where to get the "cheapest materials, cheapest inks, best price" that the last thing they are worried about is producing a quality product. Now I am NOT directing this at ANYONE directly, but I'm on both sides of the spectrum. I deal with the Sign Shops and I deal with the Corporations. I hear ALL the stories.
I know it also falls alot on the dealers that sell you your equipment and supplies. The ones who drop their price, lead with price are the ones who always provide the s**ttiest service and very little advice to their customers. I even see dealers going around to MY customers telling them "oh well we have this vinyl that's sooooo much cheaper" Ok..what's it good for? Cheap bumper stickers? Yeah maybe, but I do have some people telling me they actually throw it on cars and signage! Really?! You would actually sell that cheap material to your good customers? The same economy materials that are used for bumper stickers is what you would use for long term signage?
We are what we repeatedly do. I know there are so many good companies out there that provide outstanding quality graphics and really take pride in their equipment and the services they provide. To you, I think the fact that you are the victim of lowballing and cheap selling tactics. It's a shame. The only saving grace could be the sharing in the enjoyment that the people who do these things arent really successful in the long run. Because when they screw up jobs, or when it fails, or when they put cheap crap in their printers, they NEVER have the funds to make it right.
Don't sacrifice hard earned money just to stoop to their level. The "discount kings" are the ones crying poverty. Hold your ground and walk away. There is plenty of business out there where you will find a great company that will want to pay for a RELIABLE QUALITY PRODUCT FOR A FAIR PRICE...Not a cheap product manufacturing in the cheapest way possible.
A buddy of mine laid out a good example today, and since many people on here think buying a printer is like buying a car..even though a car doesnt MAKE you money..check this out..
"A company like a KIA dealer goes on TV pushing PRICE PRICE PRICE, CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP! Ever see a BMW or LEXUS commericial? What do you hear more about? Price? Or is it Safety? Reliability? Crash Ratings? Service? Warranty?..Think about it. You want people to feel confident about buying your products..Do you want to look like the Kia or the BMW? Your choice...
STAY STRONG..
I recently had a company (NOT A SIGN SHOP) come to me looking to buy an XC. I gave them pricing and information and they seemed really interested and then they disappeared. I tried to follow up a few times but never heard back from them. I stopped in and an employee told me they never had any intention of buying a printer. They got hosed big time on 100 4 x 8 banners by getting charged $16 psf and because they were a "huge outfit" someone thought they could get that price from them. The company didnt know better so they paid the sign shop. Needless to say they had another sign shop stop in telling them he would have done it much cheaper. They did their research and found out the cost to produce and they were livid.
From a sales side, I can honestly say I have seen more and more corporations bringing printers in house. The number one reason we get (and this may sting a little) "We are paying too much for a product of very little quality"
I hate to say it, but far too many people are focusing too much on where to get the "cheapest materials, cheapest inks, best price" that the last thing they are worried about is producing a quality product. Now I am NOT directing this at ANYONE directly, but I'm on both sides of the spectrum. I deal with the Sign Shops and I deal with the Corporations. I hear ALL the stories.
I know it also falls alot on the dealers that sell you your equipment and supplies. The ones who drop their price, lead with price are the ones who always provide the s**ttiest service and very little advice to their customers. I even see dealers going around to MY customers telling them "oh well we have this vinyl that's sooooo much cheaper" Ok..what's it good for? Cheap bumper stickers? Yeah maybe, but I do have some people telling me they actually throw it on cars and signage! Really?! You would actually sell that cheap material to your good customers? The same economy materials that are used for bumper stickers is what you would use for long term signage?
We are what we repeatedly do. I know there are so many good companies out there that provide outstanding quality graphics and really take pride in their equipment and the services they provide. To you, I think the fact that you are the victim of lowballing and cheap selling tactics. It's a shame. The only saving grace could be the sharing in the enjoyment that the people who do these things arent really successful in the long run. Because when they screw up jobs, or when it fails, or when they put cheap crap in their printers, they NEVER have the funds to make it right.
Don't sacrifice hard earned money just to stoop to their level. The "discount kings" are the ones crying poverty. Hold your ground and walk away. There is plenty of business out there where you will find a great company that will want to pay for a RELIABLE QUALITY PRODUCT FOR A FAIR PRICE...Not a cheap product manufacturing in the cheapest way possible.
A buddy of mine laid out a good example today, and since many people on here think buying a printer is like buying a car..even though a car doesnt MAKE you money..check this out..
"A company like a KIA dealer goes on TV pushing PRICE PRICE PRICE, CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP! Ever see a BMW or LEXUS commericial? What do you hear more about? Price? Or is it Safety? Reliability? Crash Ratings? Service? Warranty?..Think about it. You want people to feel confident about buying your products..Do you want to look like the Kia or the BMW? Your choice...
STAY STRONG..
Last edited by a moderator:
Bly
New Member
They are here. Ultra cheap banners are sold here and printed in Asia for peanuts.
Trying to compete with this business model is futile.
Compete on service and quality, not just price.
AnotherSignManiac
New Member
Sad enough... not banner but a pair of magnets, had a potential client come in for a quote. Gave him our price for a pair of magnets... he said WOW I just got a quote for a pair for 35$ ... (and it was another local sign shop, not internet)
WYLDGFI
Merchant Member
I like what you have to say here...and I have been following the same mantra all my time now running my own biz. As a wholesaler, I run into this often. Even I have had to outsource some jobs now and again...due to volume or size....and the quality was a huge issue. Sometimes I wish I hadnt taken a job on because I didnt have control of QC. Its MY job to make sure your banner looks GOOD for you and your client. Thats it...thats what you pay me for. The quality of the material and inks...are always good...but the image and finishing needs to look really good. I dont print for pennies...I let other people do that.