Massive air bubble under laminate!

[Ben338]

Hi guys, I produce MX decals, I use a well known brand of material that has a great reputation for quality. For the first time ever a customer has complained that his graphics have a big air bubble under the laminate after two weeks!

Ive been making these for a few months with no issues so I'm stumped. I print using a versacamm vs540i with dryer set at 40, I usually leave to dry for about 40 mins before laminating while I print other kits. My supplier says outgassing is not necessary, I beleive this is true as other decal guys say the same thing, and as this is the first issue I've ever had.

PLEASE someone suggest why this may have happened as it's worrying.

 

[Techman]

A bubble has a huge amount of gas in there. Way more than possible that could be created by the drying of ink. That is my take on the "outgassing" myth.

The amount of ink sprayed on a sheet is such a small amount that it is barely measurable.

 

[J Hill Designs]

possibly bad lam with weak adhesive in that spot? 'huge bubble' is a subjective term, though. huge compared to what?

 

[Ben338]

It's about 4cm long, here's a photo. Customer says no puncture, solid air!

 

[DougWestwood]

exactly how big?

Exactly how big a bubble are we talking?
Also, what about heat exposure? Very possible that there was a hole in the vinyl,
but not in the laminate, and heat/gas built up inside.

Further, "offgassing" might be a problem, but a good deal of time should be allowed for a print to dry,
and not just "dry out of a printer" dryness. A full day has always done me well. 40 minutes or less than a day
seems to invite problems. Just my experience.

- Doug
Vancouver

 

[Ben338]

Here we go

 

[Gino]

I don't like a project where the end result of quality control is out of my hands and in the hands of the consumer..... for this very reason. You have no comeback, other than to replace it..... or call your customer a liar.

If the bubble has appeared between the printed vinyl and the actual laminate, there are a myriad of things that could possibly produce this from faulty media, faulty procedure, to faulty application.... and even that doesn't cover all the avenues of what could go wrong. If the bubble is below the vinyl and caused the two to delaminate, you can't prove it. You can't prove a thing as no one was there to see it go on. Replace it and keep your customer happy, let him know this is a first and it won't happen again, but be sure you are indeed following proper procedures. Myths and possible short cuts won't mean diddly.

Remember, coldness could've played a part, possible contamination when laminating, maybe they spilled something on it, perhaps nothing's wrong and they want an extra. Ask for pictures of it before they remove it.

 

[Ben338]

I don't like a project where the end result of quality control is out of my hands and in the hands of the consumer..... for this very reason. You have no comeback, other than to replace it..... or call your customer a liar.

If the bubble has appeared between the printed vinyl and the actual laminate, there are a myriad of things that could possibly produce this from faulty media, faulty procedure, to faulty application.... and even that doesn't cover all the avenues of what could go wrong. If the bubble is below the vinyl and caused the two to delaminate, you can't prove it. You can't prove a thing as no one was there to see it go on. Replace it and keep your customer happy, let him know this is a first and it won't happen again, but be sure you are indeed following proper procedures. Myths and possible short cuts won't mean diddly.

Remember, coldness could've played a part, possible contamination when laminating, maybe they spilled something on it, perhaps nothing's wrong and they want an extra. Ask for pictures of it before they remove it.

I totally agree, it's the one thing I hate about this business is that the quality of the finished product is in the hands of my customer, I will certainly be reaplacing it for him and I do belive he's totally honest in this. But I'm so anxious to find out why this happened so I can be sure it'll never happen again! It's not outgassing no way, something else did this

 

[truckgraphics]

Just a Thought

My thought is that the laminate came apart from the vinyl because the ink wasn't fully dry. Nothing to do with outgassing or outgassing was just a contributing factor. Thought is based on experience - lessons learned (don't want to go into the sordid details). For example, you can usually pull apart the laminate from the vinyl when it isn't fully dry. Also, dirt bikes have to be exposed to all sorts of water/humidity, abrasions and dirt. That's the kind of condition we have found plays havoc with laminated vinyl. We always let the vinyl dry at least overnight and 24 hours or more if at all possible or if we know the conditions are going to be harsh.

 

[SightLine]

Whoever told you 40 minutes of outgassing is fine for solid black print coverage with solvent ink is an idiot. A few hours would be the minimum for the solvents to fully evaporate out. Get yourself a small bit of ink while its wet on a paper towel and run the adhesive on the laminate or vinyl and guess what happens? It dissolves the adhesive. You could get away with 40 minutes on something with a lot less saturation like a really light blue or something but not on a rich solid black. Not without risk of some sort of problems or failure anyways. Also not indicated if you installed or not but if we sell a customer decals that they are installing we make it clear that the warranty ends as soon as we hand them the decals.

 

[Rydaddy]

Can you tell us what exact media and laminate you're using? I totally appreciate the fact you didn't want to have this turn into a thread that "bashed" a certain media/manufacturer.

 

[Techman]

I redid a table top one time. It had a huge bubble in it. It was perfect when it left the shop.

The user allowed some kind of heater to come in contact with the laminated print. It cause a really nice bubble about 3 inches long. Lifted the lam right off the print and would not press back down.

Yes, excess heat will cause a delam and a blister on a print.

 

[AF]

I agree, the installer may have cooked the decal in that one spot with a heat gun. The lack of out gassing didn't help. Redo it and let them know they shouldn't nuke it with heat.

 

[Ben338]

Thanks for all the info guys. This is what im using http://www.thethickstuff.com they clearly state that I can lam and cut the same day. I recommend using a hairdryer to apply decals to my customers, it makes it so much easier and I've never had problems in the 10 years I've been doing this

 

[Techman]

hair dryer is fine.. Heat gun is not. A heat gun is very hot and that pic looks like heat.

 

[player]

Thanks for all the info guys. This is what im using http://www.thethickstuff.com they clearly state that I can lam and cut the same day. I recommend using a hairdryer to apply decals to my customers, it makes it so much easier and I've never had problems in the 10 years I've been doing this

Maybe the customer used a heat gun...

40 minutes... despite what the vinyl manufacturer says, the printer manufacturer says 24 hours...

Here is what "The Thick Stuff" says:
"Our customers tell us that they don't have time to leave the printed graphics to"outgas" for 24-48 hours before lamination and then leave another 24 hours after laminating before cutting, so the TheThickStuff 2 part system has been designed to be tough enough to print, laminate, and trim in the same day."

So they are saying end users (like yourself) say it's good to lam "in the same day". Not in the same hour. They also don't say they have formulated the vinyl and done their own testing.

 

[LittleSnakey]

Was the decal that failed on the gas tank?
Alot of mx kits have small holes cut into the decals on the gas tank pieces to allow the gas vapors to escape.

Hi guys, I produce MX decals, I use a well known brand of material that has a great reputation for quality. For the first time ever a customer has complained that his graphics have a big air bubble under the laminate after two weeks!

Ive been making these for a few months with no issues so I'm stumped. I print using a versacamm vs540i with dryer set at 40, I usually leave to dry for about 40 mins before laminating while I print other kits. My supplier says outgassing is not necessary, I beleive this is true as other decal guys say the same thing, and as this is the first issue I've ever had.

PLEASE someone suggest why this may have happened as it's worrying.

 

[MikePro]

Was the decal that failed on the gas tank?

+1
if the print was still outgassing, and your laminate typically adheres despite long dry-time, possible that the vapors outgassing from the gas tank (especially a plastic gas tank) could have accelerated the outgassing of the ink?

...just shootin' from the hip here, but get all that trapped between the layers, on a sunny day, and BAM... giant bubble.

 

[jfiscus]

I would assume with laminating prints the same day as you print them that your business thrives on quick turnarounds, so look into making an outgassing chamber to put your prints into for a few hours at least. There are a couple threads on here about making them. We always wait 24 hours in the chamber we made and it really does make a difference. When the prints come out you can't smell the solvents any more at all. Two things to remember: unroll the roll so that the air flows over all of it and solvents are heavier than air.

This isn't the first time I have ever seen a vinyl supplier be wrong.

 

[Ben338]

No it's not on the gas tank, I always cut holes in the decal for the tank, plus that would bubble the bottom printed layer, not the lam. I reckon he heat gunned it! No way I can prove it though. Thanks so much for replies, I guess all I can do is leave them to dry for as long as I can afford!