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Maybe this will help you rethink pricing...

Discussion in 'Business Management' started by neato, Aug 24, 2018.

  1. neato

    neato Very Active Member

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    How often do we here comments like "My customers wouldn't pay that..." or "I can't charge that in my area..."
    or "I would be out of business if I raised my prices"

    A little inspiration/perspective:
    https://www.kickcharge.com/kickcharge-branding-packages/

    Not saying that these prices are for everyone, everywhere. But doesn't it make you rethink charging $50 or $100 for a logo, which I know some do. :)
     
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  2. Texas_Signmaker

    Texas_Signmaker Very Active Signmaker

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    Lol, refer them to this website first, then when they freak out offer to do it for 50% less.
     
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  3. Gino

    Gino Premium Subscriber

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    Y'all know who that is, don'tcha ??
     
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  4. Pixels Are Bad Mmmkay?

    Pixels Are Bad Mmmkay? Very Active Member

    Dan the Man.
     
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  5. Gino

    Gino Premium Subscriber

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    Don't know about " the man' but it is Danny A.:clapping:
     
  6. shoresigns

    shoresigns Very Active Member

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    Sign companies are among the worst lowballers when it comes to design.

    If you're a sign company or print shop that is just starting to understand the value of design and you're wondering if you might be undercharging, do yourself a favour and buy a copy of the Graphic Artist's Guild Handbook of Pricing and Ethical Guidelines. You'll be shocked.
     
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  7. Pixels Are Bad Mmmkay?

    Pixels Are Bad Mmmkay? Very Active Member

    Oh, he's the man. If you don't believe me, just look at that pricing again. These guys simply put out top notch branding. You'd be hard pressed to find many that can do it much better, in my opinion. And having got his start in the sign industry works as a major advantage for the team, as well.
     
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  8. clarizeyale

    clarizeyale Member

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    I hope their layouts are easy to navigate through. I have a hard time receiving layouts from companies "designers" and struggle with separating the vehicle outlines and the actual artwork. Though it's fun trying to decipher it.

    You would think having a degree/background/experience, you'd know about layers and layer hierarchy hahaha

    That's pretty amazing though. Definitely gonna point this out to people who try to lowball US.
     
  9. TimToad

    TimToad Very Active Member

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    I don't disagree with your contentions in principle but feel its not an apples to apples comparison to the everyday "design" experience of the vast majority of signmakers. I have the utmost respect for Dan and my opinions have nothing to do with the business model he has built over decades of expertise and experience in both our craft and the graphic design world. In fact, he's been a career long hero and inspiration.

    First, there is a huge difference between "designing" a one off sign, vehicle graphics job, etc. and a complete branding package for corporate interests or multi-unit fleet company which is Dan's target market.

    Most of us call the first "doing a layout". Unless that one off sign, wrap, etc. is a fairly involved looking and mixed medium endeavor, hardly anyone is going to invest more than a few hours worth of design time into its design.

    In my experience, MOST clients in need of a logo design or branding package seek out graphic design studios and advertising/marketing companies well in advance of being ready to order signs for their new endeavor. We design logos on a semi-regular basis and charge our standard hourly rate, but "do layouts" everyday. We package logo design with stationary and other services together, but few companies in our community are big enough in size to warrant the services that Dan offers. Or the price tag unless they are a good size concern.

    I think Dan's example of elevating our menu of offerings and exposure level to include those services is excellent strategy and one that should be attempted by those capable of delivering professional level results.

    Second, raising one's price's is a separate issue from whether one charges for design time or not.

    Third, one's local custom's are sometimes burnt deep into the business practices of many in an area. This is where friendly, collegial associations with others in our craft can be very helpful. Ever notice how licensed electricians, plumbers, automotive repair, etc. contractors are all pretty close to each other's practices and hourly rates? Its because they've learned from experience that their work has an intrinsic value that is comparable to each other. We have some who think they are god's gift to signmaking but can't tell the difference between Arial and Helvetica or pull a straight line and then we have some who are very modest and tremendously talented but are lousy business people and undervalue their work.

    I could stand on the roof of our shop and scream at the top of my lungs all day about how we fellow signmakers should put our heads together and create a pricing structure based on similar traits, experience levels, etc. but I'd be hoarse in no time and my competition would use it as an opportunity to go call on our customers and offer bargain basement prices while I was busy doing that.
     
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  10. ams

    ams Very Active Member

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    Yeah branding people are insane. Some logos are created in two hours and they charge $2,000 for it for big customers. I do know branding guides take a lot longer, but still overpriced.
     
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  11. Pixels Are Bad Mmmkay?

    Pixels Are Bad Mmmkay? Very Active Member

    Any competent designer/design firm is going to put a lot more work into a $2,000 logo design than just sitting down with Illustrator and whipping out the first concept that comes to mind. I design logos for anywhere from $350 to $750 and typically end up spending more time than I get paid for. I'll go over a written design brief numerous times, followed up with my own research, and spend countless hours conceptualizing and brainstorming over my lunch break, on the way to the grocery store, while taking my morning shower, etc. before I even sit down at the computer. $2,000 is pretty cheap for a good logo, let alone any kind of branding package.
     
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  12. GAC05

    GAC05 Major Contributor

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    'Handy Man with Tool in Hand Inc.' ?
     
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  13. TimToad

    TimToad Very Active Member

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    $2,000 is pretty cheap except for the average, small, independently owned business who might only have that set aside for branding, signage, initial printing needs, etc.

    And they don't plan far enough ahead or accumulate enough capital to do things the right way, so they end up making lots of compromises and accepting lots of bad advice from their nephew who knows Publisher or Word.

    It's a real quandary and dilemma for those of us who want to create something unique and compelling for our clients, but realize they simply don't have the money to spend.
     
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  14. Pixels Are Bad Mmmkay?

    Pixels Are Bad Mmmkay? Very Active Member

    Yep. I see this scenario play out all too often.

    I'd also like to add that once a design is finalized and approved, there's a lot of time that goes into setting the logo up for various uses, in color and black and white, as well as all the file conversions. Anyone who thinks it's a simple two-hour process is either delusional or misinformed. Hmmm, HP thread all over again?
     
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  15. neato

    neato Very Active Member

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    So you've worked at an agency then? Or are you just guessing?
     
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  16. Rick

    Rick Certified Enneadecagon Designer

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    The amounts Kickcharge or the GAG book quotes mean nothing... or the excuses we all make for not charging enough.

    Having read articles by Dan for years... the article you need to find is when he made the realization and conscientious decision that he had to make enough to care for himself and his family and that his work had worth. Look at his work 20+ years ago, look at it now... it was a need that turned onto a choice to charge enough to make a decent life for his family now, and years to come.

    It was just him 20+ years ago, now he also has very dedicated and qualified employees. This wasn't by accident. Odd that anyone would make cracks about too many wrench logos when a person should be paying more attention to their portfolio and what they charge. If thats all you see, you may be missing the point. Good luck with the promotional signs you crank out...

    The other thing is this...
    When Dan made the decision to do better work and charge enough for it, he opened up more opportunities for his company to be the "go to" company in the field of design for service industries. Other designers can do the same... I find it odd that no one has really taken advantage of that opportunity.
     
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  17. Johnny Best

    Johnny Best Very Active Member

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    I think a company that spends $2,000 on a branding project will do it more good for future business than spending the same amount on a metal cabinet with a plastic face that lights up at night or a routed foam sign outside on the wall.
    The branding will help the company decide on what will work with their website, cards, trucks and signage.
    Dan probably spend countless hours on meetings with his team on design and thoughts on the process that he probably pays well to keep them happy.
    It’s all relative to his prices which I don’t think are high for what you get from them.
     
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  18. neato

    neato Very Active Member

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    Well all of this is definitely making me take a look at how I charge and run my business. Honestly, I've been a bit burnt out lately and don't even look forward to designing "another logo". At the prices I charge, I just get it done to move on to the next. Would love to feel like I have time to really dig in, do the research and help a business with it's image.

    I'm sure not everyone agrees with the way Dan does things, but he doesn't have to be on Signs101 whining about how the sign industry is going down the toilet (like me)
     
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  19. Gino

    Gino Premium Subscriber

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    Nothing wrong with stating facts.

    Danny A has spent a long time cultivating his most recent business model and it's working through powerful employees and salsmanship. Without his knowledge on selling and surrounding himself with capable people, it never would've taken place, much like anything in life.

    If you're burning yourself out doing anything, then it becomes a chore, a job, something you don't look forward to doing. Step back and either keep on doing the same thing...... or convince others you are good, no matter what it takes. From raising your prices to talking yourself up. If you make your goal a possibility and stay focused, you'll do it.
     
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  20. Johnny Best

    Johnny Best Very Active Member

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    Dan is not a one man band like a lot of people on here are. He hires good designers and surrounds himself with intelligent people.
    So Neato you may feel in a rut designing logos over and over because you need to get someone else on your team so you can make the big bucks, or start designing a different style like someone mentioned Dan does with a guy holding a wrench. Old styles where the Quaker. Aunt Jemimia, Uncle Ben are still with us.
    And the toilet thing, someone else mentioned that t
     
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