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misdirected anger at lowballers
- Thread starter binki
- Start date
My question is...how do you gain the training/experience by not starting a business? and not making a investment...isnt that what starting a business is? what do you need to be certified in? how to design??? i know several people who have only had high school photoshop classes and can design at a top notch level...got their experience by sitting in front of the computer and doing what they love and are good at...just because you have that fancy little piece of paper doesnt mean your any better than a person who is self taught
CheapVehicleWrap
New Member
I called a customer today who wanted a set of doors done in 1 color on his semi. I told him $180 and he said "HOLY SH*T" real loud on the phone. He said a shop up the road did another truck he had 6 years ago for $60 which was a lie im sure.
I'm really sick of hearing customers complain and say this guy does it for this. I want to just work behind the scenes instead of doing it all
Ahh yes, good to see people suck in MD too.
Pat Whatley
New Member
Talk about ZERO startup expenses....I did about $120,000 in digitally printed vinyl and banners last year and I don't own a printer, and probably won't ever own a printer. I'm just a damn hack, I know it.
signage
New Member
Yea but a good hack at that!:ROFLMAO:
I don't see what you are complaining about. Who cares if your suppliers will sell to just about anyone. Do more business and this won't be a problem right? Now you want the government to be adding more taxes and fees to our lives as business owners? Are you crazy? That will happen soon enough.
Also, as for the low ballers.. these guys are great. Just do more volume and barter with your suppliers. Tell them that you found a place willing to go lower. If they really want your business they'll work with you.
Just thought this was pretty annoying. Sorry bud. Next there will be a post about people complaining that we're having a "fee to do business" on top of our taxes.
Companies will continue to purchase large format digital printing equipment for in-house production. Why would they not???
If you owned a company that spent $25-$50K a year on prints, would you not just buy a $50K setup and hire a couple of guys to run it? It is not hard to train people to run the printers. I think I could train a monkey to run an XC-540 printer...lol.
Suppliers are not going to turn away business, especially bulk buying business.
Maybe the low ballers are just trying to put food on the table. Unless they are doing large amounts of bulk orders. They must be struggling...
I know of a large company that opened a new business just for their network of companies. Can you guess what they opened...lol? They dropped about 200K into it and still up and running. No income coming in, just saving them money on their signs. It pays for itself with savings.
Sucks... But makes sense until someone can show them a better way. Price Wars within the industry is bad enough, now we have companies forming their own sign companies. Often better than what most of us could afford with an initial equipment order.
I make signs b/c I have a love for doing it. I work on projects far past normal business hours. If I did not love it, I sure in the hell would be trying to find a new path for the long term business. The digital feed markets have only scratched the service as for right now. In a few more years you can add marketing firms offering digital feed Ads to your clients for their showrooms.
If you owned a company that spent $25-$50K a year on prints, would you not just buy a $50K setup and hire a couple of guys to run it? It is not hard to train people to run the printers. I think I could train a monkey to run an XC-540 printer...lol.
Suppliers are not going to turn away business, especially bulk buying business.
Maybe the low ballers are just trying to put food on the table. Unless they are doing large amounts of bulk orders. They must be struggling...
I know of a large company that opened a new business just for their network of companies. Can you guess what they opened...lol? They dropped about 200K into it and still up and running. No income coming in, just saving them money on their signs. It pays for itself with savings.
Sucks... But makes sense until someone can show them a better way. Price Wars within the industry is bad enough, now we have companies forming their own sign companies. Often better than what most of us could afford with an initial equipment order.
I make signs b/c I have a love for doing it. I work on projects far past normal business hours. If I did not love it, I sure in the hell would be trying to find a new path for the long term business. The digital feed markets have only scratched the service as for right now. In a few more years you can add marketing firms offering digital feed Ads to your clients for their showrooms.
Pro Signs & Graphix
New Member
Maybe not. Some truck stops have guys sitting there doing two doors for $30.
That is exactly what most vendors see. The only way around that is to form a bonafide buyers group and pre-negotiate pricing for all of its members.
binki
New Member
Still, I am not complaining, just observing.
Some vendors control the market channels. Here are some examples.
American Apparel will sell only certain items to us because we are an apparel decorator, not a retail store. I can buy t's, and the like from them but not bathing suits and items like that.
UnderArmor won't sell at all to us. We are not a retail clothing operation.
Ping requires that we decorate their garments. We cannot just sell blank Pings.
Dixie Outfitters requires that we sell at a certain price or above or they will cut us off.
Franchisers will often guarantee an exclusive area.
Distributors will be given a region and cannot poach from other regions or negotiate on price of equipment.
But any schmo can buy a (insert brand here) printer/cutter and be in the sign business. I don't have to prove anything other than the remote possibility that I might be able to make monthly payments on the thing.
There is no reason for a vendor not to sell to a legitimate business. That means having a business structure (corp, llc, dba, etc) with all the proper tax codes, registrations, physical location, sellers permit, and business license. If the vendors all did this you would not be complaining about the guy in the garage or apt. dining room beating you out on price and ruining the market.
Many of our vendors require a sellers permit and some our EIN. Some even require a physical location.
Even Signs101 has a similar policy to exclude those not in the business. It is right on the front page before you sign in and the members here work to enforce that by not discussing pricing or other sensitive aspects of the business.
Let's say all vinyl cutter vendors did the same. You can only buy if you are a legit sign biz with a physical location and a registered business. They sell you the machine and then what? Well, you need supplies and maintenance right? Part of your contract with them is to buy your parts, supplies and maintenance from them. Even better for them, you don't buy machines, you pay a monthly nut to have one and they maintain, upgrade, and replace them as new models are introduced. Want one better? You vendor gives you an exclusive area. No one within 10 miles can get their equipment. Want a bigger area?, your monthly license fee is based on exclusive area.
This gives your vendor a steady income and you actually have the ability to pay your monthly fees and stay in business because you are the only game in town. Perfectly legal way to do business.
So, back to my original point of the 'does this p you off', 'who did this sign', 'look at this guy' posts about non-professionals and garage/dining room table operators. Who let them in the door to begin with?
Some vendors control the market channels. Here are some examples.
American Apparel will sell only certain items to us because we are an apparel decorator, not a retail store. I can buy t's, and the like from them but not bathing suits and items like that.
UnderArmor won't sell at all to us. We are not a retail clothing operation.
Ping requires that we decorate their garments. We cannot just sell blank Pings.
Dixie Outfitters requires that we sell at a certain price or above or they will cut us off.
Franchisers will often guarantee an exclusive area.
Distributors will be given a region and cannot poach from other regions or negotiate on price of equipment.
But any schmo can buy a (insert brand here) printer/cutter and be in the sign business. I don't have to prove anything other than the remote possibility that I might be able to make monthly payments on the thing.
There is no reason for a vendor not to sell to a legitimate business. That means having a business structure (corp, llc, dba, etc) with all the proper tax codes, registrations, physical location, sellers permit, and business license. If the vendors all did this you would not be complaining about the guy in the garage or apt. dining room beating you out on price and ruining the market.
Many of our vendors require a sellers permit and some our EIN. Some even require a physical location.
Even Signs101 has a similar policy to exclude those not in the business. It is right on the front page before you sign in and the members here work to enforce that by not discussing pricing or other sensitive aspects of the business.
Let's say all vinyl cutter vendors did the same. You can only buy if you are a legit sign biz with a physical location and a registered business. They sell you the machine and then what? Well, you need supplies and maintenance right? Part of your contract with them is to buy your parts, supplies and maintenance from them. Even better for them, you don't buy machines, you pay a monthly nut to have one and they maintain, upgrade, and replace them as new models are introduced. Want one better? You vendor gives you an exclusive area. No one within 10 miles can get their equipment. Want a bigger area?, your monthly license fee is based on exclusive area.
This gives your vendor a steady income and you actually have the ability to pay your monthly fees and stay in business because you are the only game in town. Perfectly legal way to do business.
So, back to my original point of the 'does this p you off', 'who did this sign', 'look at this guy' posts about non-professionals and garage/dining room table operators. Who let them in the door to begin with?
G-Artist
New Member
That is and has been a business model for eons.
That is problematic. Violates most state and federal 'restraint of trade laws' that I know of.
You better double check that.
Is a tax resale number the equivalent of a 'sellers permit" in your area?
As to EIN...funny story. A while back I sold a job to the local teacher's union that went through the county school board's purchasing office (and will never do that again as they issue 1099's which are a PITA) and they required my EIN. Seems Uncle Sam also issued the same number to a construction company in a neighboring town according to the purchase agent. She was perplexed when I faxed her my copy.
Who let any of us in the door? Who let you in? Did you serve at least a four year apprenticeship via a company who trains and is certified to do so or a union such as the Painters Union which has general juridiction. Sheetmetal Workers Union also serves some sign catagories and has an apprenticeship program.
Point is we all have to start somewhere. The lucky folks will have worked in the industry and have a lot of experience under their belt before striking off on their own.
I was lucky, I came in the side door and learned as I went along but I had some great old time craftsmen as mentors.
The guy or gal who jumps in with both feet (and possibly without doing all the necessary due diligence) had better not make too many mistakes or they won't be in business for long. But who or what enticed them? Same folks who sell us our equipment in the main. They exhibit at those "start your own business" trade shows and seminars and make it seem so damn easy to make a buck.
binki
New Member
The sellers permit is a tax collection vehicle in California. If granting an exclusive area is illegal then several of our vendors master companies are in violation of the law as well as any number of property owners that limit the types and quantities of business on their property. I don't see how choosing your customers is a violation of law. Market Channels is something taught in B-School so it seems legal as long as various vendors in the same space do not collude to restrain trade.
As for getting into the business, I would be happy to see some type of licensing or apprentice program before anyone could get in.
As for us, we did 2 years of research and interviewed countless business owners and landlords before we got into what at that time was a promotional product business. We looked at a number of types of business and this one suited us the best.
Our main line now is embroidery, apparel vinyl, dtg printing and screen printing. We added decals, banners, vehicle graphics, storefronts and other vinyl applications only after about 2 more years of research and many, many, many trade shows and personal conversations for a number of hours with the equipment vendors and those in the business that were willing to share a little. We started with 100% subbed out work and are now around 5% with the other 95% all in house.
We just knew coming into the game that we needed to carve out our niche to differentiate our product (economics 101) and that is what we have done.
As for getting into the business, I would be happy to see some type of licensing or apprentice program before anyone could get in.
As for us, we did 2 years of research and interviewed countless business owners and landlords before we got into what at that time was a promotional product business. We looked at a number of types of business and this one suited us the best.
Our main line now is embroidery, apparel vinyl, dtg printing and screen printing. We added decals, banners, vehicle graphics, storefronts and other vinyl applications only after about 2 more years of research and many, many, many trade shows and personal conversations for a number of hours with the equipment vendors and those in the business that were willing to share a little. We started with 100% subbed out work and are now around 5% with the other 95% all in house.
We just knew coming into the game that we needed to carve out our niche to differentiate our product (economics 101) and that is what we have done.
SurfaceSigns
New Member
I seem to be the exact type of guy you hate then, because I don't appear to meet any of your criteria for getting into the business.
- I work out of my basement. Why wouldn't I? It's over 1000 sqft of space that wasn't being used, and instead of paying off someone else's Mortgage on a commercial property, I invest in myself and my family.
- I got into the game with no prior training. I had owned a sign company previously in the 90's, however, that was before the advent of Digital Printing. The business is nothing close to what it was 15 years ago. So, I'm a newbie.
- I am just one of those "schmo's" that walked into a sign supply company and bought a printer/cutter and all the other necessary equipment. In fact, I worked a number of suppliers to get the best deal. I also bought everything long before I had the business set up (Incorporation, Taxes, Licensing, etc). The equipment actually sat in the basement for 6 months before getting used because I had other things on the go.
- I decided to get into the business on a whim. I thought about it for all of 5 minutes maybe before deciding to make the plunge. I didn't bother with market research and interviews and such. Nothing. I decided, and after a few weeks of negotiating pricing with vendors, I had everything I needed to open shop. That was 2.5 years ago, and I am still here.
- I don't invest a dollar into advertising, nor worry about the walk-in customer. I work solely via my network of business associates and their referrals. Most of the world wouldn't know I even existed.
- Much of the work I do is for my related businesses. Yes, once again, I am taking money out of the mouths of people like you, binki. I do it not so that i can offer lower prices to my clients in those other businesses, but so that I can take more money home, to my family.
- And worst of all - I don't do this as a main source of revenue, but more of a hobby. That's right, I compete with guys like you for work with no regard for the fact that you do this full time, and I choose to do it as a hobby. Why, because I can afford to. Not because I operate out of my home (because that does have a cost), but because I am diversified. I follow the money, and I don't do anything cheap.
That said, I figure I have $60 -70,000 invested in equipment, and carry no debt on that equipment. Sure, I used my Visa card to buy all the gear, but only because it gave me LOTS of rewards points. The Visa was paid off before there was a lick of interest paid. I outsource nothing. If I can't do it myself, I'm probably not interested in the job unless I can justify buying the required equipment to do it. I would like to see this grow into a business that got my full attention, but currently I have other thing going that are far more lucrative than a sign shop will ever be. However, there are very few businesses that are as interesting and allow you to be as creative as the sign business, and that is what draws me to it.
One last thing, I just can't believe that you would lose 2 years doing research before deciding to get into a business. That is a lot of lost time that you will never profit from, and never get back. What that says to me is that you were not confident in your capability, and instead, over time, talked yourself into it. I don't care where your are, it doesn't matter how much competition there is or isn't. If you have confidence in your ability to perform and in the product and service you are going to provide, competition doesn't matter. As business owners, our job is to create something out of nothing.
- I work out of my basement. Why wouldn't I? It's over 1000 sqft of space that wasn't being used, and instead of paying off someone else's Mortgage on a commercial property, I invest in myself and my family.
- I got into the game with no prior training. I had owned a sign company previously in the 90's, however, that was before the advent of Digital Printing. The business is nothing close to what it was 15 years ago. So, I'm a newbie.
- I am just one of those "schmo's" that walked into a sign supply company and bought a printer/cutter and all the other necessary equipment. In fact, I worked a number of suppliers to get the best deal. I also bought everything long before I had the business set up (Incorporation, Taxes, Licensing, etc). The equipment actually sat in the basement for 6 months before getting used because I had other things on the go.
- I decided to get into the business on a whim. I thought about it for all of 5 minutes maybe before deciding to make the plunge. I didn't bother with market research and interviews and such. Nothing. I decided, and after a few weeks of negotiating pricing with vendors, I had everything I needed to open shop. That was 2.5 years ago, and I am still here.
- I don't invest a dollar into advertising, nor worry about the walk-in customer. I work solely via my network of business associates and their referrals. Most of the world wouldn't know I even existed.
- Much of the work I do is for my related businesses. Yes, once again, I am taking money out of the mouths of people like you, binki. I do it not so that i can offer lower prices to my clients in those other businesses, but so that I can take more money home, to my family.
- And worst of all - I don't do this as a main source of revenue, but more of a hobby. That's right, I compete with guys like you for work with no regard for the fact that you do this full time, and I choose to do it as a hobby. Why, because I can afford to. Not because I operate out of my home (because that does have a cost), but because I am diversified. I follow the money, and I don't do anything cheap.
That said, I figure I have $60 -70,000 invested in equipment, and carry no debt on that equipment. Sure, I used my Visa card to buy all the gear, but only because it gave me LOTS of rewards points. The Visa was paid off before there was a lick of interest paid. I outsource nothing. If I can't do it myself, I'm probably not interested in the job unless I can justify buying the required equipment to do it. I would like to see this grow into a business that got my full attention, but currently I have other thing going that are far more lucrative than a sign shop will ever be. However, there are very few businesses that are as interesting and allow you to be as creative as the sign business, and that is what draws me to it.
One last thing, I just can't believe that you would lose 2 years doing research before deciding to get into a business. That is a lot of lost time that you will never profit from, and never get back. What that says to me is that you were not confident in your capability, and instead, over time, talked yourself into it. I don't care where your are, it doesn't matter how much competition there is or isn't. If you have confidence in your ability to perform and in the product and service you are going to provide, competition doesn't matter. As business owners, our job is to create something out of nothing.
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Gino
Premium Subscriber
Surface……..
I don’t think anyone hates you so to speak, but rubbing all this information into the wound of many a weakened sign shops with your intent to purposely hurt others…. just seems wrong on all counts.
Telling another person you are taking the food out of their mouths and offering low prices because you don’t actually run a business is just plain arrogant. To tell us this is a hobby and not a real source of income to you…. almost goes against the rules for being on this site.
You kinda see-saw back and forth about this not being an income and only a hobby, but then you relate to yourself as being a business owner, so I can only presume you are talking about another form of income not sign related.
So what made you finally come forth and tell us you are really a lurker and here to hurt other sign shops in your area ?? If what you’re saying now is true, then you are indeed the kind of person I refer to when I say there are those among us that are here to steal, lie and cheat and will do anything in their power to hurt others. That is not competition. Competition knows each other and doesn’t hide from your neighbor and pretend to be something which they are not.
I’m really sad to hear this about you…. and most of all..... what drives you in your so-called business…. or hobby. That's the pits.
I don’t think anyone hates you so to speak, but rubbing all this information into the wound of many a weakened sign shops with your intent
Telling another person you are taking the food out of their mouths and offering low prices because you don’t actually run a business is just plain arrogant. To tell us this is a hobby and not a real source of income to you…. almost goes against the rules for being on this site.
You kinda see-saw back and forth about this not being an income and only a hobby, but then you relate to yourself as being a business owner, so I can only presume you are talking about another form of income not sign related.
So what made you finally come forth and tell us you are really a lurker and here to hurt other sign shops in your area ?? If what you’re saying now is true, then you are indeed the kind of person I refer to when I say there are those among us that are here to steal, lie and cheat and will do anything in their power to hurt others. That is not competition. Competition knows each other and doesn’t hide from your neighbor and pretend to be something which they are not.
I’m really sad to hear this about you…. and most of all..... what drives you in your so-called business…. or hobby. That's the pits.
SurfaceSigns
New Member
Gino,
I think if you read the post again, you find that I not once said I offer low prices, or undercut other shops as a way to gain business. In fact, I stated quite clearly that "I don't do anything cheap". I also never said I set up with the intent of purposely hurting others. I set up because a. I had the financial ability to do so, and b. the sign industry interests me. Is there a rule that states if I spend my money on equipment, I have to give it all my time. No. However, lets be clear, business is War, and anyone that succeeds does so at the cost of another, however unfortunate that may seem.
I don't need to lie, cheat, or steal business. I simply draw upon my abilities and my network of contacts, and gain the business. Am I willing to fight for it, absolutely. Am I willing to do it for nothing, not a chance.
In my area, there are a number of "storefront" shops that will do full colour banners for $3 a sqft or less. I really don't see the point of even bothering if that is their business model. By binki's way of thinking, because they have setup shop "properly" in his eyes, they are OK, even if they are eroding the pricing.
You are correct in that I currently devote most of my time to an other venture that is outside of the sign industry and that this business, as it is now, is more of a hobby (if only for lack of a better term). That doesn't change the fact that I have invested heavily in this industry, and did so with the hope that one day this business will be able to produce profits that make it worth while for me. When taking that in, keep in mind that we all have a different view in what is a reasonable income. Mine is probably higher than most.
Finally, sure, I am rubbing his nose in it a bit, because it pisses me off that a guy like binki seems to think they can define how each of us should run our business, and if you don't fit that mould, you shouldn't be allowed in the industry. I view it more as returning fire. You are right, I am coming off as a dick, but someone needs to step up and defend the right to run their business how they see fit.
I should also probably clarify my definition of a hobby. I am, quite simply, a work-a-holic. I'm the sort of guy that would only go to Vegas because there is a trade show to go to. My idea of a hobby is something that has the potential to make money, but isn't there yet. Aside from spending time with my family, almost everything I do is based on producing income, now or later.
I think if you read the post again, you find that I not once said I offer low prices, or undercut other shops as a way to gain business. In fact, I stated quite clearly that "I don't do anything cheap". I also never said I set up with the intent of purposely hurting others. I set up because a. I had the financial ability to do so, and b. the sign industry interests me. Is there a rule that states if I spend my money on equipment, I have to give it all my time. No. However, lets be clear, business is War, and anyone that succeeds does so at the cost of another, however unfortunate that may seem.
I don't need to lie, cheat, or steal business. I simply draw upon my abilities and my network of contacts, and gain the business. Am I willing to fight for it, absolutely. Am I willing to do it for nothing, not a chance.
In my area, there are a number of "storefront" shops that will do full colour banners for $3 a sqft or less. I really don't see the point of even bothering if that is their business model. By binki's way of thinking, because they have setup shop "properly" in his eyes, they are OK, even if they are eroding the pricing.
You are correct in that I currently devote most of my time to an other venture that is outside of the sign industry and that this business, as it is now, is more of a hobby (if only for lack of a better term). That doesn't change the fact that I have invested heavily in this industry, and did so with the hope that one day this business will be able to produce profits that make it worth while for me. When taking that in, keep in mind that we all have a different view in what is a reasonable income. Mine is probably higher than most.
Finally, sure, I am rubbing his nose in it a bit, because it pisses me off that a guy like binki seems to think they can define how each of us should run our business, and if you don't fit that mould, you shouldn't be allowed in the industry. I view it more as returning fire. You are right, I am coming off as a dick, but someone needs to step up and defend the right to run their business how they see fit.
I should also probably clarify my definition of a hobby. I am, quite simply, a work-a-holic. I'm the sort of guy that would only go to Vegas because there is a trade show to go to. My idea of a hobby is something that has the potential to make money, but isn't there yet. Aside from spending time with my family, almost everything I do is based on producing income, now or later.
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binki
New Member
Hate you or anyone like you? Nope. Don't care. We even do subbed work for basement shops that don't have the proper business license or pay taxes. We charge them sales tax and a little higher than wholesale but it is just part of the game. Some of our best customers are those that tried what you did and gave up on it.
Two years of research to find the right thing is better than picking something that didn't work and and still blowing that time. For us it came down to a business with a good margin and something that even the biggest companies don't have 1% market share which allows us to compete.
But if the equipment and consumable vendors would respect market channels then you and possibly we would not be here so cheers!
.Pro Signs & Graphix
New Member
You are referring to branded products intended for retail. Al these companies are doing is protecting the value of their brand.
Equipment and tools are things that you can use to create or maintain a branded product. The success of these companies is simply based on the number of units aka market share. It is no different than Sears selling wrenches and power tools. The only limitations here are when certain pieces of equipment create hazards to human health (but not cutting one's hand off).
Franchises do what they do to get people to buy in to their model. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. The franchisee's commitment to succeeding has as much bearing as the business model.
This does happen in some industries and I believe that Roland even practices it, BUT, be careful what you wish for. The moment this were to happen, EVERYTHING would increase. Equipment, supplies, etc. etc.
Just because someone owns something does not make them anything other than a purchaser of that something. Does owning a wrench make one a mechanic? A brush to an artist? A sewing machine to a seamstress? How about a stove to a chef?
There is always going to be someone cheaper than you or I. Concentrating or even competing on that level is pure suicide. Once there becomes enough of a market that can utilize mass production you even see Corporate America get on the wagon. Like Techman always says, basing your "custom" business on commodity pricing is never a good idea.
Custom is custom. A dedicated piece of work for that particular client. Mass production companies cannot compete in the custom arena. Sticker monkeys most often do not have the experience. So why worry about it? It has always been this way and always will be. Only those that become adequately competent at what they do will succeed.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
Ya know Surface.....
I would've believed you had I not copied your post down in the beginning from which to make my replies. Also, you seemed to change both of your posts one before me and one after me.... l-o-n-n-n-g after I posted, giving you ample time to re-write some of your wrongs. [no pun intended].
Oh, and another thing... no one is judged by what they have invested in this industry by how much money they have invested. I know many a talented people that can keep busy for the next two years and only have a few cans of paint, some brushes and a few other odds ‘n ends needed to conduct a very successful business. Besides, if your only talent in this field is designing something and pushing a print button… then $70,000 ain’t squat for a business, hobby or otherwise.
After this, I’m not really concerned what you have to say, because I don’t know how many times you’re gonna change your statements to fit the next set of ideas you re-visit.
I would've believed you had I not copied your post down in the beginning from which to make my replies. Also, you seemed to change both of your posts one before me and one after me.... l-o-n-n-n-g after I posted, giving you ample time to re-write some of your wrongs. [no pun intended].
You know what you can do with your comebacks from now on. 
Like I said a long time ago.... about the only thing I won't put up with are liars.Oh, and another thing... no one is judged by what they have invested in this industry by how much money they have invested. I know many a talented people that can keep busy for the next two years and only have a few cans of paint, some brushes and a few other odds ‘n ends needed to conduct a very successful business. Besides, if your only talent in this field is designing something and pushing a print button… then $70,000 ain’t squat for a business, hobby or otherwise.
After this, I’m not really concerned what you have to say, because I don’t know how many times you’re gonna change your statements to fit the next set of ideas you re-visit.
SurfaceSigns
New Member
Gino, First post had the following added to the second to last paragraph "and that is what draws me to it." to explain why I got in the business, as you seem to question it.
The second post was edited for grammar and spelling.
Nothing to hide on either one. They are still as "arrogant" as they were. I edited my post in the vinyl section about skins as well, I guess I did that to lie to the OP there as well. Get over yourself. It's called editing, which is why the function is available.
I can tell you, while I'm not one to start a pissing match, I wont lose a second of sleep concerning myself with what you do or don't think or me. In this case, we clearly just don't see eye to eye.
Binki - Just because a guy works out of his basement doesn't mean he doesn't play by the rules. Or course, I'll agree that's not always the case.
The second post was edited for grammar and spelling.
Nothing to hide on either one. They are still as "arrogant" as they were. I edited my post in the vinyl section about skins as well, I guess I did that to lie to the OP there as well. Get over yourself. It's called editing, which is why the function is available.
I can tell you, while I'm not one to start a pissing match, I wont lose a second of sleep concerning myself with what you do or don't think or me. In this case, we clearly just don't see eye to eye.
Binki - Just because a guy works out of his basement doesn't mean he doesn't play by the rules. Or course, I'll agree that's not always the case.
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SurfaceSigns
New Member
And the irony is, I spelt 'Nothing' wrong! And another one in the post. Damn. Do I edit, or not. I think I'll leave this one alone.
Glad to see you have a sense of humour Gino!
Glad to see you have a sense of humour Gino!