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Mounting Vinyl To Painted Aluminum

Ditchmiester

New Member
I've been mounting Oracal 3651 Transparent Laminated with 210 to painted aluminum and today i noticed that it is starting to delaminate from the aluminum and the edges are rolling up. The Aluminum is painted with a glossy enamel and we purchase it from Wrisco. Any thoughts on why this would be happening?
 

AceSignsOnline

New Member
I'd say that either one of two things happened here... Possible a combination of both.

The paint may have not had time to outgas and "cure" the way it should be vinyl is placed over it. It's also possible that the paint is fine, but you have a heavily saturated print that was laminated before the print itself could outgas.

Hope that helps.
 

bob

It's better to have two hands than one glove.
I'd say that either one of two things happened here... Possible a combination of both.

The paint may have not had time to outgas and "cure" the way it should be vinyl is placed over it. It's also possible that the paint is fine, but you have a heavily saturated print that was laminated before the print itself could outgas.

Hope that helps.

'Outgassing' is a bogeyman you use to scare your kids into going to bed. Since vinyl, both print media and laminate, is gas permeable the quaint notion of some mysterious process of 'outgassing' is a non-starter. Laminate it right out of the printer or wait for the next ice age. There won't be a whole hell of a lot of difference in the result.

Enter now the flood tide of anecdotal horror stories describing all manner of problems occurring when a print isn't left idle for some mysterious length of time. These are, as noted, anecdotes and examples of the formal fallacy 'Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc'. For every horror story there also exists an account of laminating right out of the printer that experienced no problems.

When you lay a pant-load of ink on vinyl it tends to get a bit rubbery for a while. This isn't outgassing, it's a chemical reaction between the inks and the vinyl. It will settle down and the vinyl will return to normal after a while. If this is what you mean by 'outgassing' fine, but it has little to do with solvents drying by evaporation.

I'd give good odds that the original poster's problem has more to do with printing full bleeds [an assumption, it never said this] than any chimerical outgassing.
 

Ditchmiester

New Member
'Outgassing' is a bogeyman you use to scare your kids into going to bed. Since vinyl, both print media and laminate, is gas permeable the quaint notion of some mysterious process of 'outgassing' is a non-starter. Laminate it right out of the printer or wait for the next ice age. There won't be a whole hell of a lot of difference in the result.

Enter now the flood tide of anecdotal horror stories describing all manner of problems occurring when a print isn't left idle for some mysterious length of time. These are, as noted, anecdotes and examples of the formal fallacy 'Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc'. For every horror story there also exists an account of laminating right out of the printer that experienced no problems.

When you lay a pant-load of ink on vinyl it tends to get a bit rubbery for a while. This isn't outgassing, it's a chemical reaction between the inks and the vinyl. It will settle down and the vinyl will return to normal after a while. If this is what you mean by 'outgassing' fine, but it has little to do with solvents drying by evaporation.

I'd give good odds that the original poster's problem has more to do with printing full bleeds [an assumption, it never said this] than any chimerical outgassing.

Sorry I should have stated that these are "NOT" full bleed prints. just simple graphics and text. I've made signs like this plenty of times but never had the vinyl curl up at the edges. My first thought was that maybe the adhesive on the vinyl isn't made for the type of high gloss that the blanks are painted with. I know it is an enamel paint but that is about all I know about it as we order them pre painted in 4x10 sheets.
 

Mosh

New Member
When I paint it in my booth with a gun I wait a day or two. When I used to roll on paint I would wait two or three days.
 

J Hill Designs

New Member
since its wrisco, I'd imagine it comes prepainted right? probably baked enamel that happened a year ago...I dont think the paint needs to cure (unless you painted it after recieving)
 

Ditchmiester

New Member
Yeah its coming from wrisco so i didn't think it was a paint curing issue but wanted to double check. I shouldn't have a problem sticking 3651 to painted aluminum right?
 

AceSignsOnline

New Member
'Outgassing' is a bogeyman you use to scare your kids into going to bed.

I won't actually disagree with you here, bob. But I will say that I've had to send jobs back into production after cut vinyl lettering was laid too soon over relatively fresh paint and ended up looking like it had contracted a disease that even penicillin won't take care of.
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
A few questions..... I'm moving a little slow today....... sorry. :thankyou:



Are you printing on this Oracal 3651 Transparent...... then laminating it ??
Why ??
If you are going onto painted aluminum, why wouldn't you use a grey-pigmented adhesive media ??
Whatever the above reasoning is...... is there much saturation near the edges ??

Why not just use a 1/4" overlap of the laminate around the entire graphic and eliminate any lifting at all ??
 

MikePro

New Member
vinyl failure due to solvent outgassing is not a myth. some people just have better results than others, thanks to proper profiling/ink limits.

issue here is definitely the paint, if not the primer beneath it.
it has been freaking COLD lately... which is definitely slowing the drying/outgassing process.

We've been having similiar issues with our Mathews Acrylic Polyurethane. Mostly bubbles forming beneath reflective vinyl.
waiting an additional day, before application, has been our solution. (well that, and replacement of a crapload of reflective vinyl... good thing we're caught-up!)
 

MikePro

New Member
What do you wipe the aluminum panels with?

another good question. I believe we've had problems in the past wiping painted panels with too strong a mixture of isopropyl or denatured alcohol.
paint soaks it up, starts outgassing again, ruins your vinyl.
 

MikePro

New Member
^+1
retracting my outgassing theories, and siding with Pat on this one.
makes a heck of a lot more sense, considering the issues are isolated around the perimeter of your graphic.
 

Ditchmiester

New Member
I use this method because I use both white and yellow blanks use the color to show through. I'm using a laminator to apply the vinyl to the blanks. I'm wiping them with Alcohol before laminating. The graphics are printed in a large run off of our L260 using the take up reel. Would them wanting to curl up be from them being wound up on the take up real. They aren't on the take up real very long before we take them and laminate them with the 210 and from there they are cut into strips for laminating to the aluminum. Thanks for everyone's input on this.
 

Ditchmiester

New Member
When you say tension on the Laminate is that on tension on the real for the tension or the tension on the real for the vinyl?
 

Techman

New Member
Outgassing' is a bogeyman you use to scare your kids into going to bed.

I totally agree. I have never observed the holy grail of out gassing with vinyl. Never..

As for the curling around the edges. I will wager made the vinyl piece a little larger than the size of the panel. Then you trimmed the vinyl to fit the edge perfectly. That trimming causes the edge curl. The trimming slightly pulls a stretch into the vinyl and it will later cause a lifting on the edges such you see on your product. If you trim it to fit you have to use a sharp blade and run the cut edge almost at a perfect perpendicular right angle to the piece. Even then it will lift just a little.

Plus,,,
You cut the metal and deburr it with a file or whatever. That ever so slightly rounds the edge. The vinyl will not stick to that rounded edge
 
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