My left arm for a good employee....

[HulkSmash]

IMHO, the customer is sticking the proverbial cart in front of the horse if the business card is the "platform" where he is first choosing to get a logo designed. It's so BACKWARD that some people will get business cards created (often at very low cost) and then use that as the model for ordering permanent signs. Durp!

Logo design is something that really should occur all on its own, not as an added bonus for a business card layout. Business cards are one of the cheapest ad items that exist. Is the company logo really only worth part of a business card project?

If a business owner doesn't have a logo for his business and doesn't want to pay someone to design the logo on it own, the only "value added" area I see it working at all is when the logo design is incorporated into a sign design & production project. With a decent permanent sign package more time can be spent on design without it demolishing the profit margin.

For office supplies oriented stuff, like business cards, the customer pretty much needs to know exactly what he wants and then you just do it. Iffy details and murky suggestions can lead to costly, profit killing revisions.

Logo design is separate from our business card design. I just said the same person does the job. I design the logos if i have time.

 

[knifemaker3]

Reasonable is a relative term, as we all know, but I would be OK with $14 - $15 hour for the right person. Part/Full Time, 3-4 years of good practical experience with wide format printing, laminating, production, vehicle wraps etc. We run Mimaki JV3 and HP L25500 printers, mainly 3M products, Mimaki plotters and a Royal Sovereign laminator. A good attitude & a willingness to learn would be key. Heck, while I'm putting together my dream list let's add in a decent work ethic and dependability.

Out of our league are folks with 10-15+ years experience working in a giant print house / production shop and expect to make $20+ an hour plus insurance, 401k, cell phone, company car, gas card... (sigh).

We are a small shop with everything that goes with it. A lot more teamwork and multiple skills are needed. We don't have the size or work volume to justify having someone devote all of their day to just cutting prints or sit behind a computer and design (we actually do not deal with a lot of design needs) or need someone devoted to pre-press work. We need someone who is familiar with a small shop environment and possesses some flexibility in skills and demeanor.

Dang....that almost makes me want to sell my store/shop and move to your area and take you job for $14-15 an hour full time. Them's dang good wages around my next of the woods.

My wife is the supervisor's assistant where she works at a local hospital, has worked there 10 years, and still don't make that much plus has to drive 45 miles one way just to get to work.

You people must have much better standards of living than we do here....

Best job I ever had was construction work and only got paid $11/hour with absolutely no benefits.

Your cost of living must be terrible.......

 

[Rick]

Dang....that almost makes me want to sell my store/shop and move to your area and take you job for $14-15 an hour full time. Them's dang good wages around my next of the woods.

My wife is the supervisor's assistant where she works at a local hospital, has worked there 10 years, and still don't make that much plus has to drive 45 miles one way just to get to work.

You people must have much better standards of living than we do here....

Best job I ever had was construction work and only got paid $11/hour with absolutely no benefits.

Your cost of living must be terrible.......

You are in Norwood, How many live there, 600? 1/3 of the people there live below the poverty level. It's not higher standards or cost of living, you just live in the sticks.

 

[knifemaker3]

True, I do live in the sticks. Yet people make good livings around here on $10/hour jobs and have for many years. Course we eat mostly things we've grown, shot, or hooked ourselves, don't drive fancy rigs cause they'd just get tore up on the dirt road to home anyway. But, cost of living is cheap and quality of living is high.

Thanks, but I'll keep the sticks.

Oh, and by the way.... I don't think I ever remember a time when the people working 40+ hour jobs lived anywhere but below the poverty level around here....yet they could still afford a good truck, bass boat, and have more guns in their gunracks than the city dudes living in the concrete jungles.

But with the current government that is changing fast....:Oops: I forgot we are in the era of hope and change!

 

[Rick]

True, I do live in the sticks. Yet people make good livings around here on $10/hour jobs and have for many years. Course we eat mostly things we've grown, shot, or hooked ourselves, don't drive fancy rigs cause they'd just get tore up on the dirt road to home anyway. But, cost of living is cheap and quality of living is high.

Thanks, but I'll keep the sticks.

Oh, and by the way.... I don't think I ever remember a time when the people working 40+ hour jobs lived anywhere but below the poverty level around here....yet they could still afford a good truck, bass boat, and have more guns in their gunracks than the city dudes living in the concrete jungles.

But with the current government that is changing fast....:Oops: I forgot we are in the era of hope and change!

Well, I guess that's the assumption about Socal... i gotta drive 40 minutes to get decent food, we have the sticks too. It's not all palm trees, skyscrapers and beaches. If the wind is right, I know what the cows ate for dinner. I don't live in a one horse town, we have to share it with the town next to us. But gas is not much more than yours, a house cost just as much, so do computers, internet, can't afford a boat but would like to have one and if I made more than 15, I might be able to get one, but I got me a fancy cell phone...

 

[TyrantDesigner]

What if I start someone at $20 per hour as you suggest and they turn out NOT to be the right person, what then? I have been burned way too many times to stick my hand back in that fire.

$15+ an hour is reasonable depending on your market and what responsibilities you REQUIRE of the person.

As for the if they don't work out ... that is quite easy, start them at $10 an hour, tell them at 8 weeks if they work out ... you'll bump their pay by atleast $5/hour and if they are still doing good at 16 weeks, bump them again. easy cheesy.

 

[thesignexpert]

Wow, I just have to say that that was an excellent response Just Another Sign Guy. This was all well thought out, well articulated and I think you have some very valid points. Thank you very much for the time and effort that I know you put into this. Let me briefly address some of your items...

I have had this discussion with multiple sign companies this last week...my advice is to hire the best employees that you can afford. - No argument there

biz owners who are simply 'afraid' or uncomfortable with having ppl on their staff who know more than they do... - Not an issue here either, rather the problem is after 25 years I don't see many people coming thru here knowing more about my industry, products and equipment than I do. I subscribe to the Henry Ford hiring philosophy when possible and would love to find someone who can take us up to the next level of skill and quality.

NEWSFLASH! You are the owner, You are not replaceable, You are not going to lose your job. Hire the best employees that you can afford, ESPECIALLY in the areas that you are weaker in. - see above

As business owners we often forget (or choose to forget) what is important to employees or even what employees expect..and good employees are worth keeping. The reality is that employees if they are continuously employed with your organization they expect increases in pay, it is good employee management to not only expect it but to anticipate it. It is my opinion that the best way to handle this issue is to discuss it @ the time of hire...for example 90 days probation period,followed by a 6 month performance review & then annual performance reviews on your employment anniversary (just an example). - This is what I do, in addition to reward based on a value return rather than simply time based. As I mentioned, it is common for me to give wage bumps as a direct result of an employee learning a new skill, improving quality, taking on more responsibility etc.

And if you have employees continuously employed with your organization who are not deserving of an increase I would be seriously considering their v'ue to your company... - absolutely, they no longer work here.

i often times see very small companies 'managing' this topic on personal relationships/likeability,etc...and I often times hear myself counseling clients 'that we are lucky to do business with friendly people,that does not necessarily make them your friends'..you don't need to 'like' your employees (it makes working together easier) & you shouldn't be hiring people to be your new 'potential friends', nor should you be retaining employees or basing their pay / bonuses / raises on their likeability...and the reality is that I see this VERY often. - I'm afraid I tend to move the other direction and keep employee relationships strictly business. Perhaps, a little too much.

in my experience it is better to award raises to those who are deserving before they ask for them ,they are more appreciative & it eliminates awkwardness,etc. - absolutely, see above

Many owners lose the ability to see things from an employees view & expect them to see & understand YOUR business from an owners perspective & that simply is an unrealistic expectation - very valid point, guilty as charged

Many owners forget that this is YOUR business, the reward for an employee is their paycheck & the benefits/compensation package you offer..they are not building equity, an asset that they may be able to sell in the future, etc..it seems many owners temporarily forget that..and the reality is that most of the employees who you encounter who can see the 'big picture' & consider things beyond their own 'job' will most likely become business owners themselves. - THIS is brilliantly put and is a view that I really had not considered. I think this point alone has been the helpful in doing a little "paradigm shifting" in this little ole' brain of mine.

So, I think after careful consideration that there is room to change my strategy and expectations a little bit. What I really want to find is a good solid person who can keep things running when I am not here. Someone who can handle the printers & production that I don't have worry about...

In light of that revelation I still have my original reservations regarding the risk to the company. So, I'm thinking a 90 day probationary period at $16 with a bump up to $18 providing there is a good fit. After that I want to stick with my typical policy of rewarding for the value delivered. In addition, I have a sales compensation structure in place that, so far, only a couple of employees have taken me up on. I pay a commission on projects that you sell with the first half of the commission paid when the deposit is collected and the balance paid when it is paid in full. Those that have brought in work love the extra money and those that don't always have an excuse... It is probably important to note that we do not do small projects (banners, coro etc.) so the sales effort is a bit more intimidating for some. Of course it is also proportionally rewarding.

Thoughts?

 

[Just Another Sign Guy]

i have many ideas and suggestions.

i sent a pm. let's talk at your convenience because i also have many questions and then we can report back on this thread so that hopefully others can benefit from this discussion..but some of the questions i would rather discuss in a venue other than a public forum.

 

[DoubleDown]

I am on many, many peer groups and large advisory boards for the industry and you'd be surprised how many people go through this issue, including us right now.

One of the big truths is there is no real school or education for what we do...think about it...if there was a tech school who all they taught was signs and production management or machines, we'd all be set but the reality is that almost in every company, someone is teaching someone below them what they know.

You are going to run yourself ragged, I know from experience BUT what you are going to have to do is spend more time finding a person who has experience in order management, task handling, very detailed oriented, etc and then train them and mold them to your needs. If you really do the math, paying higher per hour is really not that much more versus the time it takes away from you and mistakes in the shop. We personally here discuss everything up front and tell them right from the start that we will know in 2 weeks if they are a good fit or not and if they aren't, we will shake hands and part ways. There are plenty of good candidates out there from other industries, you just will have to train them.

One of the biggest things you can do to encourage great employees and behavior is NO different than training a dog...reward NOT punishment. We post goals for everything month, mistakes made, etc and that way everyone can see what we have to do, how much mistakes cost us and if they beat these, they get a bonus or a day off or a free dinner, etc. The more you can do to incorporate the employees into the company and make them feel part of the team, that they count and if they do good, that get rewarded, the better. Set goals for them, make them responsible every week with sitting down with them over the goals and have them tell you how they think they did and then tell them how they did.

It's very hard to find good employees often in our industry but if you pay well up front and take the time to train solid people, it will pay off in the end big time. Look for people in the manufacturing industry who have handled projects, deadlines, quality control, etc.

And always remember, money is not always the motivator for employees, but just like a dog often, if you don't direct them and reward them to what you want to do and where you want them to go, they will get mixed messages and produce okay work and okay results.

I'm in Cincy, so anytime you want to talk, hit me up...it's often great to have people you can have long talks with about things...kind of like a psych session.

Best,

 

[slappy]

For $15 an hour i'll move to Columbus and work for ya!

 

[mikey-Oh]

If you pay bananas you get monkeys!

This is my reality/nightmare(/and now forum sig), any Okie employers in the metro browsing this thread?

 

[Stealth Ryder]

I briefly skimmed thru this thread but have this to say... In most areas, NOBODY can live on less that 15-16 Dollars a hour... I know young fellows/ladies making that who are really struggling to make ends meet... It cost alot to live these days when you consider Rent, Elect, Water/Sewer, Trash, Gas, Fuel, Car Payment, Insurance, etc... That being said, it cost alot to run a business these days as well... A GOOD employee should make a employer at least 3 times his/her salary at a minimum to justify being there... It is up to the employer to ensure the work is there to allow the employee to do this... If you have the work you will find the right guy or girl for the position but if you do not pay them properly they will move on down the road to someone (a boss) who will... If a employee is earning you 3X the salary then you start throwing perks at them such as insurance, vacation time, 401K deposits, etc...

 

[g&eprinting]

One of the biggest things you can do to encourage great employees and behavior is NO different than training a dog...reward NOT punishment.

your yeller. you sound scared other people have thoughts and perform actions.

Ask them how they felt they did so you can condiscendingly patronize them .


con·de·scend·ing
   [kon-duh-sen-ding] Show IPA

adjective
showing or implying a usually patronizing descent from dignity or superiority: They resented the older neighbors' condescending cordiality.

Your gonna get a lot of pee on your carpet.

Good people, not dogs are hard to find. Dogs are easier!
This is the mentality we have that screws us, me included sometimes.

How many true friends do you have that would not laugh at one of your pitfalls. (or maybe laugh and help you up).

Employees could become the greatest of friends and maybe even partner next year or 2 who knows. Given the right direction. Say yeah right and watch their shop pop up across the street.

That dog learned how to jump from you and your closed mentallity and knocked you off that high horse and took your contacts customers and whole business plan and perfected behind your back. When these ideas could have been shared if he thought you were genuine enough to let him grow with the company.

Are you sending your employees to wrap class? Getting them a contractor license?

Having a certificate that they got while working with you not under you, is a great accomplishment in some people lives and never forgotten.

Imagine you paid for them to get wrap certified. $600 for some classes. That wouldn't be worth it after a 90 day probation period. Promoting their greatness in your shop. I can see this value.

Do you really feel your hiding some trade secrets from them?

They are just stupid and only know how to move a squeegee cause you taught them.

Hopefully none of your employees are smart enough to make an email address and have an account with signs101 and read this.

Coming from an employer Not employee.

Believe half the people that come into your shop are there to learn and open their own business. Isn't that what everyones great advice is here when someone wants to buy a crap plotter. "Go work in a shop and learn "(steal all trade contacts and customers before you venture out.)

It won't be stolen if it is taught and the respect will be there from the one who is teaching Daniel-son.

Where's the respect that they are not going to steal everything from you including customers. Wheres your mentallity at that if this person was doing extremely well that you could branch out and franchise and have this person manage another shop for you. Not enough respect there even with the finest surveillance equipment.

Train dogs with rewards and he is only sitting when he expects a treat.
When you have no treat. He won't sit. Have some respect and love and understanding for the human race. and we are not sniffing butts.

Yes I used to train pitbulls too.

I don't want anyone to feel like I am downing them I want you to look at this from a different perpective.

Make someone feel lower than you and they are going to want to get away from you or get higher than you any chance they get.

If that works on your wife because your the bread winner good for that biscuit cause shes used to the kitchen. If someone else gave her an opportunity she might outshine you. (send her and those employees my way.) Just kidding nobody get bent.

We are talking about men and women walking in the shop looking for food to feed their families. Willing to sweep your floors pretending not to speak english cause you make no sense in any language. Who might own a business that makes more than yours that is running on its own with employees. Ha Ha and they just want your medicaid bennies.

and we are the smart ones while they are playing stupid all the way to the bank.

 

[g&eprinting]

Truth is you could be breeding or training bad employees. Since we are in dog metaphors.

Pretend for a day and go fill out some applications and see how you get treated.
Here Fill this out and go F' yourself.

Then they call you back and your expecting yes I get to work with giant printers and wonderful people who are finally going to teach me what I've been wondering.
Then they say well you have no experience so we found a place for you sweeping floors around these giant printers. So they are taking pictures of the names of these printers with their cell phones planning on financing one after one year at your place and quitting once they get it.

REAL TALK not for the little ones.

I'm at a friends shop around his employees and we are shooting the sh!t about suppliers and such and he gives me a real strange look and pulls me to the side.
He says "hey man don't be saying anything about that in front of them." I laughed so hard I fell over. I said you don't think they know already you must be crazy. Keep treating them like they are stupid and they are going to play more and more stupid until they are getting paid to have no responsibility at all. My employees are doing all this for me and more.
Thats why I'm at your shop chilling. Like a good Boss.

and he's wondering why employees there are like a revolving door.
I told him and we had a nice conversation about this.

 

[CentralSigns]

What really counts is how much the $20 per hour guy will make you. If you charge out his work at say $60 per hour and he works 2/3 of the time productively you make money. The $20 dollar an hour guy is already trained in some thing. The new guy at $13 will require some of your time well a good portion of your time to start and you don't sound like you can afford any lost time. Especially out of your best worker yourself. I would consider hiring a skilled employee at $20-25 per you'll see a return on the investment sooner when you need rather than latter when he is finally trained.

I used to always argue this out with family in the business, he would always hire the cheap guy, get him trained only to have him to leave for another shop paying more $$. And this happened every year or two for 15 years. He finally hired a graphics artist at $26 per hour, trained her to do some installs and printer runs and it's paid off. Most days she makes him triple or more than she costs. But now he has one that stays and is loyal to his company. Isn't that what we all need in an employee !!

 

[TyrantDesigner]

One of the biggest things you can do to encourage great employees and behavior is NO different than training a dog...reward NOT punishment.

your yeller. you sound scared other people have thoughts and perform actions.

Ask them how they felt they did so you can condiscendingly patronize them .


con·de·scend·ing
   [kon-duh-sen-ding] Show IPA

adjective
showing or implying a usually patronizing descent from dignity or superiority: They resented the older neighbors' condescending cordiality.

Your gonna get a lot of pee on your carpet.

Good people, not dogs are hard to find. Dogs are easier!
This is the mentality we have that screws us, me included sometimes.

How many true friends do you have that would not laugh at one of your pitfalls. (or maybe laugh and help you up).

Employees could become the greatest of friends and maybe even partner next year or 2 who knows. Given the right direction. Say yeah right and watch their shop pop up across the street.

That dog learned how to jump from you and your closed mentallity and knocked you off that high horse and took your contacts customers and whole business plan and perfected behind your back. When these ideas could have been shared if he thought you were genuine enough to let him grow with the company.

Are you sending your employees to wrap class? Getting them a contractor license?

Having a certificate that they got while working with you not under you, is a great accomplishment in some people lives and never forgotten.

Imagine you paid for them to get wrap certified. $600 for some classes. That wouldn't be worth it after a 90 day probation period. Promoting their greatness in your shop. I can see this value.

Do you really feel your hiding some trade secrets from them?

They are just stupid and only know how to move a squeegee cause you taught them.

Hopefully none of your employees are smart enough to make an email address and have an account with signs101 and read this.

Coming from an employer Not employee.

Believe half the people that come into your shop are there to learn and open their own business. Isn't that what everyones great advice is here when someone wants to buy a crap plotter. "Go work in a shop and learn "(steal all trade contacts and customers before you venture out.)

It won't be stolen if it is taught and the respect will be there from the one who is teaching Daniel-son.

Where's the respect that they are not going to steal everything from you including customers. Wheres your mentallity at that if this person was doing extremely well that you could branch out and franchise and have this person manage another shop for you. Not enough respect there even with the finest surveillance equipment.

Train dogs with rewards and he is only sitting when he expects a treat.
When you have no treat. He won't sit. Have some respect and love and understanding for the human race. and we are not sniffing butts.

Yes I used to train pitbulls too.

I don't want anyone to feel like I am downing them I want you to look at this from a different perpective.

Make someone feel lower than you and they are going to want to get away from you or get higher than you any chance they get.

If that works on your wife because your the bread winner good for that biscuit cause shes used to the kitchen. If someone else gave her an opportunity she might outshine you. (send her and those employees my way.) Just kidding nobody get bent.

We are talking about men and women walking in the shop looking for food to feed their families. Willing to sweep your floors pretending not to speak english cause you make no sense in any language. Who might own a business that makes more than yours that is running on its own with employees. Ha Ha and they just want your medicaid bennies.

and we are the smart ones while they are playing stupid all the way to the bank.

Really good post. As someone who has been on both sides of hiring or being hired at one point in time in the past 5-6 years ... good points.

Really it all comes down to what your needs and responsibilities of this person are. Pay for what you need, expect that person to develop and take their skills with them ... and for the love of all that is unholy ... if someone comes in and hands you a resume ... don't look at them like they are from mars if it's readily apparent that they not only have the experience but a resume and portfolio to show it ... I can't even describe the number of places that looked at me with a "And ... why are you applying here if you know how to do all this? ... I'm not giving you my job." sort of look. I mean crap and a half, if I can't do something I refer my jobs I can't do (because of shear shop limitations) to shops that are filled with people that don't give you attitude just for walking through the door. I actually like working for someone else right now, less stress (normally) ... no need to discriminate against someone just looking for a more laid back atmosphere or some solid work when they first move an area.

 

[mortil]

Im a little tempted to take vacation and come over and work