My left arm for a good employee....

[thesignexpert]

... or at least a reasonable wage

We are just slammed with work it seems and we can't seem to find anyone decent. Lot's of folks with no experience at all and some folks that are way out of our league. Monster has proven itself useless, leads out thru the local grapevine haven't been productive and trying Temp agencies had been pointless as well.

I can't keep working 6-7 days a week / 20 hours a day! It's killing me and is completely antithetical to my whole life philosophy. Aye Caramba!

Anyone else having this problem?

 

[laserman70]

... or at least a reasonable wage

We are just slammed with work it seems and we can't seem to find anyone decent. Lot's of folks with no experience at all and some folks that are way out of our league. Monster has proven itself useless, leads out thru the local grapevine haven't been productive and trying Temp agencies had been pointless as well.

I can't keep working 6-7 days a week / 20 hours a day! It's killing me and is completely antithetical to my whole life philosophy. Aye Caramba!

Anyone else having this problem?

We know the problem. Its crazy busy and we are working constantly. Watching football today and working (what the he!!) Better than being bored and closing doors I guess.
Finding people is tough here to. Young dont want to work and those w some experience want loads of money even though they are unemployed. gotta love it.
Glad we are not alone.

 

[Rick]

What's a reasonable wage, and what is way out of your league?

 

[thesignexpert]

What's a reasonable wage, and what is way out of your league?

Reasonable is a relative term, as we all know, but I would be OK with $14 - $15 hour for the right person. Part/Full Time, 3-4 years of good practical experience with wide format printing, laminating, production, vehicle wraps etc. We run Mimaki JV3 and HP L25500 printers, mainly 3M products, Mimaki plotters and a Royal Sovereign laminator. A good attitude & a willingness to learn would be key. Heck, while I'm putting together my dream list let's add in a decent work ethic and dependability.

Out of our league are folks with 10-15+ years experience working in a giant print house / production shop and expect to make $20+ an hour plus insurance, 401k, cell phone, company car, gas card... (sigh).

We are a small shop with everything that goes with it. A lot more teamwork and multiple skills are needed. We don't have the size or work volume to justify having someone devote all of their day to just cutting prints or sit behind a computer and design (we actually do not deal with a lot of design needs) or need someone devoted to pre-press work. We need someone who is familiar with a small shop environment and possesses some flexibility in skills and demeanor.

 

[Rodi]

Out of our league are folks with 10-15+ years experience working in a giant print house / production shop and expect to make $20+ an hour plus insurance, 401k, cell phone, company car, gas card... (sigh).

We are a small shop with everything that goes with it. A lot more teamwork and multiple skills are needed. We don't have the size or work volume to justify having someone devote all of their day to just cutting prints or sit behind a computer and design (we actually do not deal with a lot of design needs) or need someone devoted to pre-press work. We need someone who is familiar with a small shop environment and possesses some flexibility in skills and demeanor.

20 bux an hour, that is a steal for the right person.

Do you really expect people to stay in the business if they can't make more than twice a McDonalds worker? Would you?

I think you are cheap (not a knock, ok?) so you need to hire someone without experience at 11-13 bux who will be dependable and smart, who can learn. That way you can keep them by treating them well and giving them just compensation at the right times. By my own experience when you hire someone for more than what you believe is fair, you will always hold it against that person.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Reasonable is a relative term, as we all know, but I would be OK with $14 - $15 hour for the right person. Part/Full Time, 3-4 years of good practical experience with wide format printing, laminating, production, vehicle wraps etc.

That's a hard combo, especially people that have experience, that's experience that they are bringing to the table that you are getting already. You don't have to deal with their learning curve.

Out of our league are folks with 10-15+ years experience working in a giant print house / production shop and expect to make $20+ an hour plus insurance, 401k, cell phone, company car, gas card... (sigh).

I'm right there with you. Not necessarly the $20 dollar an hour, but all that extra stuff along with that. Like Rodi said, $20s can be a steal. If that 3-4 yrs of knowledge that you are wanting them to have and it's good habits and good working knowledge, it might very well be a steal.

 

[thesignexpert]

20 bux an hour, that is a steal for the right person.

Do you really expect people to stay in the business if they can't make more than twice a McDonalds worker? Would you?

I think you are cheap (not a knock, ok?) so you need to hire someone without experience at 11-13 bux who will be dependable and smart, who can learn. That way you can keep them by treating them well and giving them just compensation at the right times. By my own experience when you hire someone for more than what you believe is fair, you will always hold it against that person.

First of all, yes, I do and did personally for considerably less. Respectfully, the tricky part in your theory is the term "right person". How do I know they are the right person? The only way to find the right person, in my opinion, is over time and experience working with them. From a practical standpoint, I am looking for someone right between a no-experience person & a veteran. As a direct result of that scale I am willing to start them at an in-between wage. This seems very reasonable to me.

What if I start someone at $20 per hour as you suggest and they turn out NOT to be the right person, what then? I have been burned way too many times to stick my hand back in that fire.

It sounds like I subscribe to the same compensation philosophy as you overall though. I believe in rewarding for performance and value that is brought to the table. I have had employees get multiple raises in a year because they are doing great and continue to raise the bar. Conversely, I have had a couple that got no raise (or very little) because they simply were not earning it. So, if I start a mid-level new person at a mid-level wage then we are able to grow together. As they find their rhythm and begin to bring the value to the company then they earn their way right on up.

It doesn't sound like I'm being cheap at all. Again, it sounds very reasonable to me but maybe I'm just deluding myself.

 

[Rodi]

I am looking for someone right between a no-experience person & a veteran. As a direct result of that scale I am willing to start them at an in-between wage. This seems very reasonable to me.

Don't you will just get someone with bad habits from another place. Find and train the right person. Have them do stuff that they will earn their keep.

 

[Rick]

Thanks for answering the question, I have been looking for a job for a while, while running my own business.

I think what you are asking for is reasonable.

I ask because I am the overqualified guy and looking for the owners point of view. I have never been interested in running my own business, but seem forced to 7 years ago because of my situation. Now I'm forced to because of my over qualification. I chose to stay away from printing, fabrication and the installation part of the business because that is way too much for one person to deal with and I am busy enough with design only.

My observation is this... the economy has been in the tank for 3-4 years. If I was a newbie sign guy 3-4 years ago, I'm probably not gonna go anywhere unless it's to my financial advantage or a good career move. I am clueless to the cost of living in your area, my area averages 34k a year, last I read was 17% unemployment in the immediate area, so work is hard to get. Sometimes it's better to stay where you are at. They say it's a buyers market for employers but I think that was a few years ago, now all thats left are the straglers and the over-qualified.

The last 10 interviews I have had, most were new to the business (1-3 years) only 2 had contractors licenses, and most only had 2-3 employees. They thumb through my portfolio like it was an old Sears catalog and never ask what I'm willing to do. I now have to prequalify interviews because working for someone that knows less than me is probably not going to work, and no contractors license is not taking advantage of all my skills and find a shop close enough to drive so I don't need to cover that extra gas cost. I have designed 2-3 million bucks worth of signs a year, I have designed and did print/vinyl production at a million, so my capacity is mismatched to most sign shops. I'm screwed. I have even dumbed down my resume and I am still overqualified.

I'm left armed, but I would give my right arm to get a job with a growing company wiling to use my skills and experience in a professional atmosphere. I'm thinking quite a few feel the same.

Thanks again...

 

[ova]

Maybe try outsourcing some stuff. At least until you can get your feet back under yourself.

I posted in another thread about having to go outside the shop and get work due to losing our insurance. Two weeks later we had an employee quit. Makes for some long days and nights. I'm here now finishing up a partial wrap. Have to get up at 4:30 am to go to the other job.

We've been sending some work out. Not much, mostly stuff needed printed. That way it's ready to apply in the evenings when I get here. I don't like doing it this way, but for now it's working for us.

Good luck.

Dave

 

[WildWestDesigns]

I am clueless to the cost of living in your area, my area averages 34k a year, last I read was 17% unemployment in the immediate area, so work is hard to get

There is a town about 20 minutes from me in the next count and that county has 20% unemployment, but it is also heavily rural as well, so that does affect it.

Now again, regional differences will play a part, but around here 14-15 wouldn't get you anyone with 3-4 yrs experience unless they were just flat out desperate. I hate to say this, but based on what people they have in the temp agencies pool around here, it's not a steller crew to choice from also.

Plus, even with 3-4 yrs experience, they might have all the wrong habits. Alicia(ball and chain) got lucky because she had just finished her accounting degree and most jobs wanted 2-3 yrs experience, but she managed to get on with a company that wanted an employee with a "blank slate". She started out at 16 dollars an hour and that's well below average for a total newbie, but they were the only one hiring. Oddly enough she got that job thru Career Builder(the only legitimate lead she got from them after yrs of being on there).

You are taking a gamble with anyone you hire as you won't know if they are worth anything until after having them on for a while and get past the initial learning the shop's dynamic, but here it'll be much harder to find that diamond in the rough. It's possible, but hard.

 

[Farmboy]

... or at least a reasonable wage

We are just slammed with work it seems and we can't seem to find anyone decent. Lot's of folks with no experience at all and some folks that are way out of our league. Monster has proven itself useless, leads out thru the local grapevine haven't been productive and trying Temp agencies had been pointless as well.

I can't keep working 6-7 days a week / 20 hours a day! It's killing me and is completely antithetical to my whole life philosophy. Aye Caramba!

Anyone else having this problem?

People keep telling me this is a good problem to have. True to a point and better than just sitting and staring at the phone all day. I put out the Help Wanted sign a month ago and took in over 40 apps in two days. No one stood out at all and the three of us continue to bust our butts 10 hours a day and myself 7 days a week. I do love that we're busy and keeping up, but yes, it takes a toll.

 

[thesignexpert]

Don't you will just get someone with bad habits from another place. Find and train the right person. Have them do stuff that they will earn their keep.

That is a very valid point. We've experienced that phenomenon as well. Seems like you spend your time trying to break bad habits rather than getting them to actually be productive. I would be perfectly willing to train an entry level person but I have to draw the line somewhere. I don't want (and don't have the time) to have to teach someone that x-acto blades are sharp and what a squeegee is. Perhaps I should change my wish to "I would give my left arm to find the right person..." If anyone comes up with an answer to that one I think everyone here would be all ears

 

[royster13]

Sounds like in addition to the staff problem, you have a pricing problem.....Sounds like you are too cheap!

 

[Speedsterbeast]

If you pay bananas you get monkeys.
There are people who want to work and help grow a business, but you have to pay for them.
I left my employer of 12 years this summer (not in the sign business) and started my sign business. I gave them a great work ethic, had annual sales exceeding 1 Million dollars per year (for several years) and wanted to do more, but I realaized that they would not reward me for such accomplishments so I had to move on. Don't get me wrong. I was treated okay and had a decent relationship with the owners, but in the end. I was hungrier than they were. I would have liked to have stayed. But my employers did not seem to see the same value in me as I did (until it was too late) so the rest is history. I promised myself that if and when I get big enough to hire an employee I would pay well, and most of all PROFIT SHARE. I cannot understand any business owner that wouldn't see the value in this. The more they make, the more you make. I would never expect an employee to come to work for a more noble reason than myself- MONEY, but I always felt that my employers, all my life, wanted more from me than they were willing to pay me, even though I was capable of giving them even more than they expected. My rant is over. Just saying good people cost good money and are worth it. Glad to hear you're busy.

 

[thesignexpert]

Sounds like in addition to the staff problem, you have a pricing problem.....Sounds like you are too cheap!

We are actually at the higher end of the scale with pricing and we regularly turn projects away or refer them other shops. Our problem has come about thru staff attrition (voluntary and otherwise) in combination with an increase in sales volume. I subscribe to the 80/20 rule (Pareto's Law) and actively turn away work that doesn't hit our goals for efficiency, time drain & profitability. Unfortunately (in this particular viewpoint) our good clients are doing better and we are seeing the fruits of many years of hard work.

I know, I know, it's a great problem to have but like FarmBoy said, it is definitely taking a toll. I just want to get back to seeing my family on a regular basis again and would like to find a good person to help make that happen. Everyone else here is pitching in and working hard but it's not fair to keep them wired so tight either.

I don't know, maybe I am letting the fact that I enjoy what I do and don't really consider it work get in the way of a realistic view. I just don't consider myself unreasonable (who does right?). Is it crazy to expect someone to earn their way up? Why should I have to keep shouldering the risk of an unknown associate who may or may not prove to be a total waste of time? I simply wasn't raised to think like this and was always expected to prove my worth before I reaped the rewards. I have no problem getting someone up to $20 an hour but I want them to prove that they are worth it first. Why is that crazy (not that anyone said that specifically)?

 

[WildWestDesigns]

We are actually at the higher end of the scale with pricing and we regularly turn projects away or refer them other shops. Our problem has come about thru staff attrition (voluntary and otherwise) in combination with an increase in sales volume. I subscribe to the 80/20 rule (Pareto's Law) and actively turn away work that doesn't hit our goals for efficiency, time drain & profitability. Unfortunately (in this particular viewpoint) our good clients are doing better and we are seeing the fruits of many years of hard work.

I know, I know, it's a great problem to have but like FarmBoy said, it is definitely taking a toll. I just want to get back to seeing my family on a regular basis again and would like to find a good person to help make that happen. Everyone else here is pitching in and working hard but it's not fair to keep them wired so tight either.

I don't know, maybe I am letting the fact that I enjoy what I do and don't really consider it work get in the way of a realistic view. I just don't consider myself unreasonable (who does right?). Is it crazy to expect someone to earn their way up? Why should I have to keep shouldering the risk of an unknown associate who may or may not prove to be a total waste of time? I simply wasn't raised to think like this and was always expected to prove my worth before I reaped the rewards. I have no problem getting someone up to $20 an hour but I want them to prove that they are worth it first. Why is that crazy (not that anyone said that specifically)?

What about keeping them thru a "probation" period that they prove what they are capable of and how they fit in with your shop's dynamic?

So you pay $XX amount per hour for a certain period and depending on your assessment from that fix a wage. If they have a good review of their experience and want to continue on.

That's really about the only way that I know for each side to see how things are going to work out without being burned too much. Always that risk, but I think something like this reduces it.

 

[SightLine]

I'm in the exact same situation right now. I think the wages do vary for the area you are in as well. What you are looking for is about the same I'm looking for. I'm dead tired. I have been working 7 days a week on average 12 hours a day for over 3 months nonstop now. Not one single day off and it's really wearing on me. And.... I have 6 FULL 36 foot bus wraps to print and install in the next 2 weeks along with a full size pickup wrap, honda CRV wrap, and have to go get detailed measurements for a custom 48 foot full trailer interior wrap! Along with the run of the mill smaller stuff that comes through.

My distributors are loving me right now! For some reason my sales guy gets quite attentive and happy when I order 8 rolls of BusArt at once.... along with perf, lam, massive amounts of magenta and yellow ink, app tape, etc...

Problem is everyone I had call on my last ad was severely underqualified, severley overqualified, or did not even live in the same state (or even in the country!).

 

[phototec]

If you pay bananas you get monkeys.
There are people who want to work and help grow a business, but you have to pay for them.

Trained good people cost good money and are worth it.

This is the best advice you will receive, and if you can't get it through your head, then you will continue to have your dilemma.

Go ahead and hire someone at $15 for a 30 day preliminary period of 30 days, if they fit well and make you money, take them to $20 and show them you appreciate their contribution to your business. If they don't workout and not worth the $15, send them packing.

You have a business and make a living, and if you reward (compensate) good help fairly (like you pay yourself), they can have a good living, and be happy to come to work for you everyday. I know folks making $14 at McDonalds.

They last two places I worked, my pay was over $20 and also given profit sharing, so I became a workaholic, and put in many, many more hours than required. Started work early, worked through lunch, and stayed late, because I was being compensated for going the extra mile. If I was paid in bananas, that would be a whole different story.

You know one of the best lessons learned is, YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR, If you pay bananas you get monkeys!

 

[Bobby H]

We're having a tough time trying to find good, qualified people.

Some of it is the lack of skills.

Some of it is candidates who have a hobby of getting high/drunk. We have a company-wide random drug testing policy at my work place. The policy helps reduce liability and workers comp insurance costs. Some of our crew has to be random tested anyway because of certain regulations involving crane truck drivers. We figure if they have to be tested then anyone in the company should be subject to being tested. I think this sort of thing is going to become far more common in many work places whether anyone likes it or not. Legal bills are extremely expensive here in the United States.

On wage scales, you gotta be willing to pay competitively for good personnel. You might get a bit of a break depending on the cost of living in a given area. That price varies extremely from one city to another town. Here in Oklahoma living costs are relatively low. Go to some place like Hawaii, San Francisco, etc. and it goes extreme the other way. In that area you not only have to pay more to keep someone in a livable wage, you have pay to buck a trend of workers fleeing a high cost area. Who needs to live in a fashionable place if all you're going to do there is starve?