Need Advice on a Printer Purchase....

[rdmdarr]

LMAO!

Your too funny! wait a minute.... your not serious are you??

Would it be too much to ask a simple question? Why are you even in the newbie section?? Is this your way of trying to get rid of your competition? Do you all feel threatened? This section is for "newbies" we 'newbies are all going to have simple, maybe dumb sounding questions to all of you KINGS of your industry who obviously cannot be bothered with questions that are beneath you.

You make it sound like you need 20k-50k to even THINK about cutting a piece of vinyl. I get the feeling that your threatened by newbies like myself that can buy a used cutter for under 1K buy a couple rolls of vinyl and do the EXACT thing that you do and for some reason you have 100K invested in equipment, software, and buildings

Don't forget that there was a day that you printed or cut your first piece of vinyl and now for some reason you think that you are obviously better than the rest of us.

1) You asked about buying a printer, not buying a plotter. Two different things. A plotter you can get cheap, go look at the graphtec knockoff from signwarehouse. We did nothing but cut vinyl for 20 years, and would sub out all the digital printing. Look at www.signs365.com or http://www.signs2trade.com both top notch companies who can print and ship out within a day or two. They do printing for the "trade only." A used printer needs to be run a couple hours a day or you have to start doing a lot of maintenance to it to keep it running in top shape. We looked at the numbers, and when we decided that we could make more money in house than subbing it out, we went out and bought one.

2) Asking what printer is preferred is like asking do you like Ford, Chevrolet, Dodge, Etc. Comes down to your clientele and what your goals are in the future for the machine. Just remember to never restrict yourself. If you buy a 30 printer, you are restricted to do just 30". When we bought, we got a 64". We could have went with a 54" but for the few extra grand, we are not restricted. If we need to print a 5ft banner, we can! If we need to print a hood in one piece without a seam, we can! Again before you go all in and but a printer, make sure you know what your goals are and where you plan to be in 3-5 years.

3) If you are still deadset on buying a used printer, go look at:
http://globalgarage.net
http://www.signweb.com/forum/for-sale sometimes here.
http://www.reecesupply.com/events/reece_supply_company_of_louisiana_end_of_year_demo_sale.pdf saw this earlier, those are some good deals on some demo units.

thats my 2 cents, hope it helps.

 

[Sign Works]

Sounds like the MUTOH PrismJET VJ24 will be a perfect fit for you.

 

[Hammer]

Thanks rdmdarr!

Excuse the ignorance? I assume that what I call a Cutter is really referred to as a plotter right? If so, I have been running a plotter (cutter) for 15+ years and outsourcing as it's called from local sign shops when needed.

I have a full time job that pays the bills and yet I still average 10-15 hours/wk cutting vinyl. For the past couple years now I have been thinking it might be time to jump into digital printing on a small scale and hopefully be able to grow enough to sell off the small and move up to bigger equipment and move into a shop.

It would be nice to start at the top with big expensive machines and a huge shop but it doesn't work that way. Starting out is always small and slow with used equipment due to the affordable cost until the need to go big is there. I already have a steady list of repeat clients and I feel this is the next step for me.

You bring up some good points that I was not aware of. The need to keep the printer running to keep things running smooth is a biggie for me. I did not know that would be an issue and will have to give this some serious consideration and maybe 'push' the printing more than I thought.

I Know "which is best" is a matter of preference. I talked with a local sign shop that does my printing about which one I should look for and I was told HIS brand was the best (of course) I need to hear from more than one person and that's why I started this thread.

I guess what I was hoping for was that with the vast numbers here somebody would be able to share some info. Maybe there is a brand that sux and I should stay away from it, or another brand that shines over the rest. UNfortunately my budget is for a small used printer, just want to get the most for my money until I am able to buy new.

Thanks again for your info including the links. I am going to do some more thinking and look at all the links you attached.

VERY helpful and appreciated!!

 

[J Hill Designs]

You bring up some good points that I was not aware of. The need to keep the printer running to keep things running smooth is a biggie for me. I did not know that would be an issue and will have to give this some serious consideration and maybe 'push' the printing more than I thought

I said this farther up, but I guess Im too mean for you to listen to me.

again. outsource (not locally, but from one of the wholesale to the trade shops mentioned above)

a used printer is a nightmare waiting to happen. trust me.

 

[Hammer]

Although I asked for opinions on good or bad brands I seem to be getting business advice and a pattern on used equipment.

Is the reason for the troubles and headaches because of a used machine?

If I were hypothetically going to buy a roll to roll machine and just for argument sake let's say I have enough business to keep it running every day should I be looking for NEW versus a USED machine?

 

[Gino]

Now, we're answering make believe scenarios.

Most people here answer with whatever information they have to offer based upon your initial request. It would be up to the OP to look through and use or keep whatever they find useful. Otherwise, most people don't really need to answer questions which serve no purpose, other than to amuse your fancy.

Most of us, unlike you, work this stuff full time and play by the rules. Coming here and asking questions of your nature and then listening to your whining, just makes the natives more angry....... or in my case, gives me some reading material.

 

[Techman]

I get the feeling that your threatened by newbies like myself that can buy a used cutter for under 1K buy a couple rolls of vinyl and do the EXACT thing that you do and for some reason you have 100K invested in equipment, software, and buildings

Not hardly.. But most are sick of working behind some guy hacking away in his basement forcing full timers to redo failed low balled work. Most full time shops left retail vinyl cutting anyway.

And finally.. Real Estate signs? Good luck with that.
I personally visited the local MLS office and saw their in house sign shop. They buy in bulk all those real estate sign products selling them to the agents at a price we cannot match even if working in a basement on the side.

The RC world is really limited. Selling a few decals at 5 bucks each will never pay for the maintenance on your printer let alone make a profit. Printers will use more ink in a week just in maintenance than you will sell. So please do. Get your own printer and have at it.

 

[rjssigns]

Get a Roland SP540V. Mines been a tank. Slow? Yup, but it just cranks out work with no fuss. Just finished a bunch of tabletops for SXSW. Can find them for $8500-$9500.

 

[Fred Weiss]

Although I asked for opinions on good or bad brands I seem to be getting business advice and a pattern on used equipment.

Is the reason for the troubles and headaches because of a used machine?

If I were hypothetically going to buy a roll to roll machine and just for argument sake let's say I have enough business to keep it running every day should I be looking for NEW versus a USED machine?

I think what's getting you so many answers that are not direct answers to your original post is your apparent mindset and approach. You are essentially looking for simply answers to questions that require complex considerations. Aside from some brands that are not manufactured by a known and trusted manufacturer and are sold to those seeking a low price as their primary or only concern, there are no "bad" brands. Among the "good" or trusted manufacturers such as, and in no particular order, you should be looking at:

• Roland DGA
• Mimaki
• Mutoh
• Hewlett Packard
• Summa
• Gerber
• Epson

Yet every one of the above has the occasional dud and, more importantly, discontinued model. Generally speaking, the older the date of the introduction of any particular model from any manufacturer, the worse will be the speed and quality of the printed output. For example, the Roland sp-300 has been around for more than a decade now. Later models have higher speed, higher resolution and superior color. If a particular model is discontinued then getting parts, service and supplies for it will become more difficult and expensive.

Then there's the technology of any particular model. There's full solvent, eco-solvent, mild solvent, latex, thermal resin, UV, aqueous and others. Each has its pros and cons. Running any type of solvent in a poorly ventilated space is likely to shorten your life. Different models come with different numbers of inks and different color management profiles. If you do a job today on a four color model it will likely look different on a six color model when a repeat order comes in a year from now or if one is eco-solvent and the repeat is latex. And, of course, size matters when it comes to growing into banners, larger signs and vehicle wraps/graphics.

You will also need a laminator with most color printing technologies, software that supports print, cut and RIP, and a plotter that has OPOS built into it.

If you have little or no hands on experience with any model, or with wide format color printing in general, you should be asking yourself how you will go about running, maintaining and repairing it. That's where having a good relationship with a good supplier comes into play. Dealing with a quality supplier will cost your hundreds more but will save you thousands.

Finally, understand that from your perspective it is easy to become overly fascinated with the ever changing technology and to downplay all the other things you will need to know and bring to the table to be successful. Go to the Las Vegas ISA Expo in April both for exposure to the technology and for the many seminars also available. Consider outsourcing for now to true wholesale to the trade vendors and invest in technology from profits instead of risking going into debt for technology you may not understand well enough to make informed decisions about.

Good luck.

 

[ChaseO]

My thoughts on used printers are as follows:

People selling used printers to buy a newer, bigger model have probably run their machine a lot, which is a good thing. People selling printers on craigslist because they thought they needed a printer, probably let their machine go idle a lot, which is bad. Maintenance is expensive on printers, and you do get what you pay for. Plotters are simple machines and can last years and years. My personal plotter is 21 years old and still cuts like the day I opened the box. My printer has a few years on it now and I have spent more money on ink, maintenance and repairs than the machine itself, and you won't catch me complaining. (roland sp300v) I do think you need to be aware that to run a printer will cost a lot more than just the initial investment. In addition to running my printer a few hours a day, I also outsource some prints. signs365 along with GH Imaging and a few others have always done me right. I don't want to talk you out of buying a new or used printer, but I honestly don't think you have the volume to make it worth it. I understand your argument about not wanting to sell products that you can't produce yourself, but I can typically buy prints online and have them here within 36 hours.

 

[rjssigns]

My thoughts on used printers are as follows:

People selling used printers to buy a newer, bigger model have probably run their machine a lot, which is a good thing. People selling printers on craigslist because they thought they needed a printer, probably let their machine go idle a lot, which is bad. Maintenance is expensive on printers, and you do get what you pay for. Plotters are simple machines and can last years and years. My personal plotter is 21 years old and still cuts like the day I opened the box. My printer has a few years on it now and I have spent more money on ink, maintenance and repairs than the machine itself, and you won't catch me complaining. (roland sp300v) I do think you need to be aware that to run a printer will cost a lot more than just the initial investment. In addition to running my printer a few hours a day, I also outsource some prints. signs365 along with GH Imaging and a few others have always done me right. I don't want to talk you out of buying a new or used printer, but I honestly don't think you have the volume to make it worth it. I understand your argument about not wanting to sell products that you can't produce yourself, but I can typically buy prints online and have them here within 36 hours.

Good post.


We use our printer for short run fast turn work. A lot of other things get subbed out. Having a subcontractor make your products is not a bad way to go.

The time I would spend printing and finishing a job can be used to lock down another client. It can be a much less stressful way to do business.

Lots of other advantages too. Especially when it comes to things you don't do that often.

You may find you would have to buy a full roll of material just to do a job that only needs a few feet.

Lots of things I've learned over the years, but would take a book to explain.

 

[truckgraphics]

Have the Seller Demo the Machine

Regarding buying a used machines, my advice would be the make sure the seller demos the machine for you.

We've owned a couple of Rolands (SP300 and VS540) and have been very happy with them, but I'm sure other printers do a great job too. When we sold the smaller Roland after years of hard use, the heads were a bit worn and some colors / settings banded a bit, but the machine was workable if you babied it. We didn't hide any of the faults and when we sold it - to a hobby guy - we demo'd it for him. He paid a fair price, but I doubt he does any production work with that machine. However, our machine looked just like any other and if we told someone the machine was perfect, but we couldn't turn it on for whatever reason, maybe we would have made more money. (I'm happy with what we got out of the machine and sleep well at night.)

But back to a demo on a used machine - make sure the owner runs a test pattern for the heads - which are usually the most expensive thing on a printer. Also, have the owner run a test print of some sort of art work. And finally, listen the machine. Does it sound like it's running smoothly? (The tracks/bearings/mechanism that supports the head are just as expensive or more expensive than the heads on a Roland and probably other machines.)

Would I buy a used machine? No advice. We bought our Rolands new because I felt it was more important to focus on the business than the printer. But a healthy used machine is probably fine.

And that leads me to my last thought. It's your business. You asked for advice about printers. I gave it. Others tried to give business advice - to put it mildly - or discourage you - to be blunt. If you want to print in-house, outsource, work out of your basement or rent a shop - all up to you. As you can imagine from some of the responses, it's a tough business. Lots of competitors. Pretty easy to get into it. If your marketing or cost structure or skills or quality or pricing are better than mine, you might beat me. We're going to do our best to beat you. You sound like you know what you are doing. Have at it! Just don't open next door to me. Then I'll hate you like poison !

 

[Billct2]

First get used to selling and designing digital work and sub out the production. Once you have a handle on that, visited a few trade shows and read up more on the subject you'll be able to make a more informed choice.

 

[Hammer]

PERFECT!!

I would like to extend my hand to Thank:

FredWeiss
rjssigns
truckgraphics
chaseo
Billct2
...and a few others from early on

Your posts are PERFECT and exactly what I was looking for! I picked up a couple tips, names of equipment used and things to think about.

NOTHING negative, not telling me what to do and how to do it, either your way or the highway type of attitude that some of the others have.

Your info is VERY informative and will be taken to heart unlike some of the other posts (and I believe you know which ones they are)

Because of YOUR posts I am re-thinking my position on a printer but still welcome any more input on the subject.

THANKS AGAIN!!

 

[Gino]

I just like happy endings........

 

[Robert M]

24" Mutoh

If you do decide on the 24" Mutoh ValueJet, I have a demo unit I am selling. Comes with full warranty and a set of inks

Give me a call

Robert
303-733-6671