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Need help buying my first printer!
- Thread starter foeller32
- Start date
sign master
New Member
I just hpoe hw reads all of these posts and gets the point that most us us have been doing this for years (22+) and may know somthing that he does not about staying in business.
You might want to do a market research for pricing in your area.
You might want to do a market research for pricing in your area.
Locals Find!
New Member
As someone who is mainly a broker.
You are frigging out of your mind with that pricing. Why are you leaving all that money on the table??? Are you allergic to money??
Are you some kind of New Economic Terrorist trying to destroy the Economy????
$25 an hour for Design work?? $2-2.50 sq. Ft. for banners???
I don't even design well and I get paid almost 3 times more than you an hour.
I sub out my banners and I can easily sell them at $8-$10 sq. foot. Sometimes I will go a little lower a foot (I really mean a little I might knock a buck off or two tops) if they are in large quantities I mean 25 or more of the same banner. If your doing one or two off your just killing yourself, the guy down the street, other brokers, even the guy who sells burgers down at Mickey D's. Your killing the whole economy.
Don't even think about getting your own machine. Guys like me will chew you up with cheap work, work you to death and move onto the next schmuck who attempts to sell at those prices.
So when your claiming bankruptcy and living out of your car or more likely the boxes your supplies came in. I am going to make a small fortune off of your stupidity and never think twice about how I screwed you over.
You are frigging out of your mind with that pricing. Why are you leaving all that money on the table??? Are you allergic to money??
Are you some kind of New Economic Terrorist trying to destroy the Economy????
$25 an hour for Design work?? $2-2.50 sq. Ft. for banners???
I don't even design well and I get paid almost 3 times more than you an hour.
I sub out my banners and I can easily sell them at $8-$10 sq. foot. Sometimes I will go a little lower a foot (I really mean a little I might knock a buck off or two tops) if they are in large quantities I mean 25 or more of the same banner. If your doing one or two off your just killing yourself, the guy down the street, other brokers, even the guy who sells burgers down at Mickey D's. Your killing the whole economy.
Don't even think about getting your own machine. Guys like me will chew you up with cheap work, work you to death and move onto the next schmuck who attempts to sell at those prices.
So when your claiming bankruptcy and living out of your car or more likely the boxes your supplies came in. I am going to make a small fortune off of your stupidity and never think twice about how I screwed you over.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
Wow-wee.....But don't you think you're being a little hard on the guy ?? Afterall, it is his first day here and he is a 'Broker'........ like you.
You're doing a bang up job on this guy.... far worse than mine, iSigns's or any other person
So, Addie..... how does this all make you feel ??
Besides, I remember your pricing being a little different than what you're saying here. What gives ??
HulkSmash
New Member
But don't you think you're being a little hard on the guy ?? Afterall, it is his first day here and he is a 'Broker'........ like you.
You're doing a bang up job on this guy.... far worse than mine, iSigns's or any other personcombined here that got on your case.... ever.
So, Addie..... how does this all make you feel ??
Besides, I remember your pricing being a little different than what you're saying here. What gives ??
Letterbox Mike
New Member
But don't you think you're being a little hard on the guy ?? Afterall, it is his first day here and he is a 'Broker'........ like you.
You're doing a bang up job on this guy.... far worse than mine, iSigns's or any other personcombined here that got on your case.... ever.
So, Addie..... how does this all make you feel ??
Besides, I remember your pricing being a little different than what you're saying here. What gives ??
Everybody is being hard on the guy. So he doesn't understand pricing, at least he's here asking questions. His design work is really good, maybe with a little coaching from all of us he can be turned around. He has a good product, he just needs to learn how to sell it for the premium it deserves. This is somebody that could become an asset to our industry instead of a liability with a little guidance.
For what it's worth, we print for a lot of brokers. They don't understand our industry because they've never been in our shoes. Many of them don't know their ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to properly pricing our services, they just add their percentage and go on. So if Foeller is undercutting people's pricing, I sincerely doubt he's doing it with the intent of hurting anybody. He's being charged a buck a square, and not knowing any better, he doubles it. In many industries, a 100% markup for a broker is commonplace, if not excellent. And if he has nothing to compare it to, he's doing what he may think is right. That's not really his fault.
The company selling him banners for a buck a square bears more blame, especially for not taking the time to properly educate him. I don't have a single broker client we work for that hasn't had a sit down with me to go over how to responsibly and competitively price our products. Many of them have no idea they can charge $6-8 p.s.f. and make the sale, but when we enlighten them to that, they become customers for life, sell more product, and overall do no harm to our industry. That's all Foeller needs.
Locals Find!
New Member
But don't you think you're being a little hard on the guy ?? Afterall, it is his first day here and he is a 'Broker'........ like you.
You're doing a bang up job on this guy.... far worse than mine, iSigns's or any other personcombined here that got on your case.... ever.
So, Addie..... how does this all make you feel ??Besides, I remember your pricing being a little different than what you're saying here. What gives ??
My pricing on banners has never been low (I pay more than what he is charging a sq. foot) and I have never lowered what I charge for Design Gino.
This Guy gives Brokers a Bad Name. It pissed me off.
I have never low balled. I have kept pricing current with my market. I price just like the big shops in my town price. I know because, I ask them what they charge and talk to them all the time to keep prices where everyone is happy. Both customers and all of us Business Owners here in town.
Honestly, I would love to see him ignore what I say and buy a machine. I could use someone cheap to print for me. I would love to ride his business like a pack mule right until it falls over dead. Then someone else can get some good equipment for a low price and help keep the economy going.
If you haven't figured it out yet "I HATE LOWBALLERS!!!" I don't like people that make life harder for me. Lowballers are even more harmful to my business model than to yours. You own your equipment. You have some equity. I have my brain and my mouth and an old plotter. I have no real equity if I go bankrupt there is nothing here to get auctioned off or that can be converted to cash of any real consequence.
10sacer
New Member
Banners
Foeller,
I get what you are doing and am sorry that everyone is torching you here.
If its not what you do - then don't do it. You will run out of wholesalers who will give you the occasional banner at $1 a square, but lets not be hypocritical here, either. This is the same industry that gives billboards away at .49 a square foot every day.
Pricing like that is usually reserved for volume customers who don't require any handholding and aren't terribly picky about critical color.
Be good at what you are good at and let someone else who is good at what they do help you. Just trying to save you alot of headaches.
To answer your question, though - for interior work - the 5500/5000 will be fine, but be prepared to become a mechanical and engineering wizard - because you won't be able to afford a technician.
I can do them for you for .99 a square foot, but the shipping will be $65 a pound
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Evryone here is gasping at $2 a square retail - in NC - there are so many printers that unless we are around $2.50 a square - we won't get the job. Too many desperate people with cheap printers and Chinese vinyl. Thats the problem with this industry now - too easy to get into, you can do it in your basement and everyone thinks they can make a good living in it. Meanwhile I am printing 50 boards on the flatbed while finishing 10 banners and listening for the latest head strike on the Mutoh printer - all while answering the phone and arranging deliveries and posting silly messages on this site! And once again - I didn't have lunch... Are you SURE you wanna do this?
Good luck...
Foeller,
I get what you are doing and am sorry that everyone is torching you here.
If its not what you do - then don't do it. You will run out of wholesalers who will give you the occasional banner at $1 a square, but lets not be hypocritical here, either. This is the same industry that gives billboards away at .49 a square foot every day.
Pricing like that is usually reserved for volume customers who don't require any handholding and aren't terribly picky about critical color.
Be good at what you are good at and let someone else who is good at what they do help you. Just trying to save you alot of headaches.
To answer your question, though - for interior work - the 5500/5000 will be fine, but be prepared to become a mechanical and engineering wizard - because you won't be able to afford a technician.
I can do them for you for .99 a square foot, but the shipping will be $65 a pound
-Evryone here is gasping at $2 a square retail - in NC - there are so many printers that unless we are around $2.50 a square - we won't get the job. Too many desperate people with cheap printers and Chinese vinyl. Thats the problem with this industry now - too easy to get into, you can do it in your basement and everyone thinks they can make a good living in it. Meanwhile I am printing 50 boards on the flatbed while finishing 10 banners and listening for the latest head strike on the Mutoh printer - all while answering the phone and arranging deliveries and posting silly messages on this site! And once again - I didn't have lunch... Are you SURE you wanna do this?
Good luck...
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Locals Find!
New Member
"In Business as in life you're either Growing or Dying, there is NO in between." - Colin Powell Jan. 26th 2011
Gino
Premium Subscriber
Addie, I don't have a problem with what you said… in fact, I have nothing to do with it one way or the other, but HOW you said it is where the problems lies. Nobody pounced on you your first day, including me. In fact, going over your first days or weeks here, almost everyone was quite nice to you. Perhaps not in your eyes, but they were.
Here, you rip this guy a new bung-hole as if anyone cares what you say or do. Do you remember how many people came to your rescue and condemned me and others for constantly getting on your chit ?? The main difference though was….. I was against your constant lying. Being a ‘Broker’ just went with the territory for you. You fit the mold like a glove and a better one than OJ’s.
Haven’t you learned anything, yet ?? Haven’t seen you around for a while and &*BAM@*> you're on the warpath. Settle down before you blow a gasket. It’s Friday and time to kick back and enjoy a little. Try it….. you might like it.
Here, you rip this guy a new bung-hole as if anyone cares what you say or do. Do you remember how many people came to your rescue and condemned me and others for constantly getting on your chit ?? The main difference though was….. I was against your constant lying. Being a ‘Broker’ just went with the territory for you. You fit the mold like a glove and a better one than OJ’s.
Haven’t you learned anything, yet ?? Haven’t seen you around for a while and &*BAM@*> you're on the warpath. Settle down before you blow a gasket. It’s Friday and time to kick back and enjoy a little. Try it….. you might like it.
*Sheesh* Talk about getting raked over the coals.
I should have explained better what I do. Nearly 100% of the work I do is for churches. I started the whole operation with the main intent of helping churches out. Sure, I make a little bit of money, but I'm honestly not trying to get rich doing it. It might sound foreign to you, but goal #1 is helping churches do things with printing that they otherwise couldn't or wouldn't do. Goal #2 is making money which, believe it or not, does happen. If all I wanted to do was to make money, then I'd open up a shop down on main street and charge $10 a foot for banners and $75 an hour for design. This is all side work for me, so it's extra money, not what I'm depending on to make a living. I have practically nothing invested, zero debt, and do the design work while sitting on my couch or the dining room table. Night and day difference from most people here. If I had a shop, utilities, insurance, etc, than naturally my prices would be a lot higher.
Most of the churches that I deal with have never done banners before. They still probably wouldn't, if I hadn't come along and offered to do the complete job - banner and design - for one decent price. If their only option was to do more leg work on their own, tracking down both a designer and a printer and ultimately paying more, most of them would probably forget about doing banners. Again, I'm mainly a designer, but when I had the opportunity to handle banners for my customers - really no additional work than what I was already doing - for 100% markup, I jumped at the chance.
Btw, it takes my customers about two weeks to get their banners. A quick google search will find you a half dozen other printers that offer banners for between $2 and $3 a square foot, but they still take well over a week to get. They will never compete with the local guy who can run off a banner same day or next day, and actually sit down with a customer to help them work out the kinks in their project.
Five years ago, I designed two 36" x 84" banners to hang indoors at my church. The first shop I called quoted me $450. Worth it or not, there is no way we could afford that. We would have forgotten the whole idea before we paid that. A few more phone calls, and another local shop quoted $175 and they would up printing my banners. (I didn't do any pitting them against each other - "This guy will do it for $xx, can you beat it?" - I just don't do that. I ask for a price, and then say yes or no). The shocker - both shops have tons of loyal customers. Both are selling basically the same product. The first has found people who are willing to pay top dollar. The second has found people who aren't - and apparently found enough of them to still make a living with his lower prices. That's the free market system at work - nothing at all wrong with that. If you can get $10 a foot for your banners, that's awesome! I couldn't get it, though - not with what I do.
I don't know everything that goes into printing banners. That's why I posted here in the first place. I'm realizing that it's probably a lot more work than I need to bit off at this point, though. I might as well sign off here, though. Thanks to those who did give some good information sprinkled in between...um.. everything else. Too bad I was the one getting roasted. It would have been fun reading if not for that. Hope everybody enjoyed the free entertainment. @JetFastPrinting - hope the popcorn was good
I should have explained better what I do. Nearly 100% of the work I do is for churches. I started the whole operation with the main intent of helping churches out. Sure, I make a little bit of money, but I'm honestly not trying to get rich doing it. It might sound foreign to you, but goal #1 is helping churches do things with printing that they otherwise couldn't or wouldn't do. Goal #2 is making money which, believe it or not, does happen. If all I wanted to do was to make money, then I'd open up a shop down on main street and charge $10 a foot for banners and $75 an hour for design. This is all side work for me, so it's extra money, not what I'm depending on to make a living. I have practically nothing invested, zero debt, and do the design work while sitting on my couch or the dining room table. Night and day difference from most people here. If I had a shop, utilities, insurance, etc, than naturally my prices would be a lot higher.
Most of the churches that I deal with have never done banners before. They still probably wouldn't, if I hadn't come along and offered to do the complete job - banner and design - for one decent price. If their only option was to do more leg work on their own, tracking down both a designer and a printer and ultimately paying more, most of them would probably forget about doing banners. Again, I'm mainly a designer, but when I had the opportunity to handle banners for my customers - really no additional work than what I was already doing - for 100% markup, I jumped at the chance.
Btw, it takes my customers about two weeks to get their banners. A quick google search will find you a half dozen other printers that offer banners for between $2 and $3 a square foot, but they still take well over a week to get. They will never compete with the local guy who can run off a banner same day or next day, and actually sit down with a customer to help them work out the kinks in their project.
Five years ago, I designed two 36" x 84" banners to hang indoors at my church. The first shop I called quoted me $450. Worth it or not, there is no way we could afford that. We would have forgotten the whole idea before we paid that. A few more phone calls, and another local shop quoted $175 and they would up printing my banners. (I didn't do any pitting them against each other - "This guy will do it for $xx, can you beat it?" - I just don't do that. I ask for a price, and then say yes or no). The shocker - both shops have tons of loyal customers. Both are selling basically the same product. The first has found people who are willing to pay top dollar. The second has found people who aren't - and apparently found enough of them to still make a living with his lower prices. That's the free market system at work - nothing at all wrong with that. If you can get $10 a foot for your banners, that's awesome! I couldn't get it, though - not with what I do.
I don't know everything that goes into printing banners. That's why I posted here in the first place. I'm realizing that it's probably a lot more work than I need to bit off at this point, though. I might as well sign off here, though. Thanks to those who did give some good information sprinkled in between...um.. everything else. Too bad I was the one getting roasted. It would have been fun reading if not for that. Hope everybody enjoyed the free entertainment. @JetFastPrinting - hope the popcorn was good
10sacer
New Member
Banners
Foeller,
Like I said - i understood what you were doing.
I do a pretty good amount of work for churches and I generally give a pretty hefty discount to help them market themselves as best they can with no budget. I do this for several reasons - not the least of which is the understanding that a diverse range of folks go to churches and among them is usually designers and marketing/communications managers and brand managers - all of whom buy graphics at RETAIL prices. So if i sell banners to a church at $2 or $3 a square foot - its pretty inexpensive marketing for me, too.
Seems a lot of people completely overlooked the thread last week about "Attitudes Around Here".
Hope some of us were helpful - good luck
Foeller,
Like I said - i understood what you were doing.
I do a pretty good amount of work for churches and I generally give a pretty hefty discount to help them market themselves as best they can with no budget. I do this for several reasons - not the least of which is the understanding that a diverse range of folks go to churches and among them is usually designers and marketing/communications managers and brand managers - all of whom buy graphics at RETAIL prices. So if i sell banners to a church at $2 or $3 a square foot - its pretty inexpensive marketing for me, too.
Seems a lot of people completely overlooked the thread last week about "Attitudes Around Here".
Hope some of us were helpful - good luck
SignManiac
New Member
Not sure why you're giving the churches a break. They've got plenty of money. They happen to be some of my best clients and I'm an atheist. Do you have a guilty conscious? Religion is a business just like I am.
You are not helping this industry by donating your services.
You are not helping this industry by donating your services.
10sacer
New Member
Churches
I do it as I see appropriate and when I feel i won't get taken advantage of and its usually for startups.
One of my biggest clients is one of the largest churches on the east coast. You are right - they have plenty of money, but they bid out everything and I have to compete with idiots from Florida to Pennsylvania who drive the price down.
I also give discounts for Scout groups, too.
Remember this - I didn't say I discount everything for churches - just cheap a$$ vinyl banners.
See the photo for a $3000 banner job I did last Christmas. They gave me 1 week to turn it around and get it installed and with alot of advice from forum members - we came up with a successful application method that they loved.
Personally - I don't see why everyone gets their panties in a wad when someone comes on here and does something out of the supposed "norm". How hard would it be to just give answers to sought after questions and let whatever happens to that person happen?
There's a reason most of us started our own businesses and not the least of those is the ability to charge whatever we want for our products and services and not have to answer to anyone.
I do it as I see appropriate and when I feel i won't get taken advantage of and its usually for startups.
One of my biggest clients is one of the largest churches on the east coast. You are right - they have plenty of money, but they bid out everything and I have to compete with idiots from Florida to Pennsylvania who drive the price down.
I also give discounts for Scout groups, too.
Remember this - I didn't say I discount everything for churches - just cheap a$$ vinyl banners.
See the photo for a $3000 banner job I did last Christmas. They gave me 1 week to turn it around and get it installed and with alot of advice from forum members - we came up with a successful application method that they loved.
Personally - I don't see why everyone gets their panties in a wad when someone comes on here and does something out of the supposed "norm". How hard would it be to just give answers to sought after questions and let whatever happens to that person happen?
There's a reason most of us started our own businesses and not the least of those is the ability to charge whatever we want for our products and services and not have to answer to anyone.
Attachments
CentralSigns
New Member
A cold welcome from the Frozen Rockies !!!!
Oh...... and only God can help you now, no one can make a $ at your prices, that's why your supplier is done rest his soul. Many sign companies are struggling with Vista Print at $5 per square foot, some closed sign shop owners and their employees are using the food banks to feed their families, probably funded by the very churches that broke them. While some churches have done a good job, others may be lacking. Look at the church ripping off sign people all the time. Wouldn't have believed it till they tried it on me, "Please print 5000 banners and we will have them, shipped give us a visa number too rip you off with", I didn't bite. Anyways think about the families relying on food from selling modest priced sign products that your are destroying, undercutting them at $1 sqft, then think about what they will do to keep out of the gutter. Will your dollar per sqft pay to help them. Look for a different cause to climb on man, hand out rubbers downtown or something. Good luck Dude !
Oh...... and only God can help you now, no one can make a $ at your prices, that's why your supplier is done rest his soul. Many sign companies are struggling with Vista Print at $5 per square foot, some closed sign shop owners and their employees are using the food banks to feed their families, probably funded by the very churches that broke them. While some churches have done a good job, others may be lacking. Look at the church ripping off sign people all the time. Wouldn't have believed it till they tried it on me, "Please print 5000 banners and we will have them, shipped give us a visa number too rip you off with", I didn't bite. Anyways think about the families relying on food from selling modest priced sign products that your are destroying, undercutting them at $1 sqft, then think about what they will do to keep out of the gutter. Will your dollar per sqft pay to help them. Look for a different cause to climb on man, hand out rubbers downtown or something. Good luck Dude !
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10sacer
New Member
Marketing
Flamer,
You admit to just delving into advertising and marketing yet you already know what works and doesn't work?
Do you think there is a reason why every major brand manufacturer gives out coupons every week at the local grocery store? A coupon is nothing more than a discount you can hold in your hand and you have to actually go somewhere to redeem it and do you know what happens when people go into a store with a coupon for one thing - they end up purchasing other things at retail prices more than 50% of the time. I learned this in college while getting my Marketing degree. Walmart isn't as successful as they are by banking on singular shopping experiences.
So you are telling me that getting a product in front of 1000 people a week for as little as its gonna cost you is a bad idea?
Look... most small to medium shops have a woeful marketing budget and/or strategy. A lot throw money at direct marketing strategies that are cheap, but end up returning nothing and way too many just live and die by word of mouth and a precious few take shots at everyone else for daring to do anything out of the norm.
I don't do wraps, I hate to even bring coroplast into my shop and I only do banners because thats what 70% of wide format is (Infotrends survey).
The most disturbing thing is that its 11:00 on Friday night and I am waiting for the flatbed to finish the last board and I am on this forum while my wife and kids are at home asleep.
Flamer,
You admit to just delving into advertising and marketing yet you already know what works and doesn't work?
Do you think there is a reason why every major brand manufacturer gives out coupons every week at the local grocery store? A coupon is nothing more than a discount you can hold in your hand and you have to actually go somewhere to redeem it and do you know what happens when people go into a store with a coupon for one thing - they end up purchasing other things at retail prices more than 50% of the time. I learned this in college while getting my Marketing degree. Walmart isn't as successful as they are by banking on singular shopping experiences.
So you are telling me that getting a product in front of 1000 people a week for as little as its gonna cost you is a bad idea?
Look... most small to medium shops have a woeful marketing budget and/or strategy. A lot throw money at direct marketing strategies that are cheap, but end up returning nothing and way too many just live and die by word of mouth and a precious few take shots at everyone else for daring to do anything out of the norm.
I don't do wraps, I hate to even bring coroplast into my shop and I only do banners because thats what 70% of wide format is (Infotrends survey).
The most disturbing thing is that its 11:00 on Friday night and I am waiting for the flatbed to finish the last board and I am on this forum while my wife and kids are at home asleep.
Flame
New Member
8 years, I'm not a noob. But there are so many marketing genius's out there I thoroughly understand I'm not even in the same league.
Officially has ZERO to do with discounting banners to churches.
I fail to see how a banner with the CHURCHES advertising info is doing anything for your business other than the strange oddball person who's gonna ask "hey, who made that banner?"
Hey we agree on something here!!! That goes for SIGN SHOPS TOO!!!
Once again fail to see how this even relates to what we're talking about. Late night Margarita's?
ha, true dat