* Need to find true black ink *

[SideFX]

Hi everyone, and I'm new to this forum and need some help.
I'm sure you have all heard it before, about black ink not being true to it's name.
This is causing me some grief as I do fine art with a lot of detail and subtleties, and people expect to receive what they see on screen.
The issue is with a green tinge when the opacity of the print drops.
As I was an air brusher for more than a decade, I recently did a little experiment, so please see the attached as it describes my findings quite well. And in fact, had to post it in my site as a waiver, for too many people have been complaining about it.

So my question is, can I get ink somewhere that will be more true black than the current mixture/processing in the Ecosol Max brand, which is in fact made by Epson, and that will be compatible with my Roland.

Thanks for reading.

 

[jasonx]

Its not your ink its a profiling issue. When we had our profiles made the gray scale replacement was setup properly.

If your only printing in black and white I think you can print in density control only for black and white. Never done that but read about it on here.

 

[SideFX]

Did you look at the attached image? Look again.
I have pulled hair out over it. Tried everything under the sun, thus resorted to crude testing for this discovery.
It is clear to see that the black has green in it as it fades out.
This is directly from the ink tank, not the profile, didn't go through the printer, direct from tank to media. It has everything to do with 'chemistry' and not the profile, printer or anything else.

Its not your ink its a profiling issue. When we had our profiles made the gray scale replacement was setup properly.

If your only printing in black and white I think you can print in density control only for black and white. Never done that but read about it on here.

 

[bob]

Did you look at the attached image? Look again.
I have pulled hair out over it. Tried everything under the sun, thus resorted to crude testing for this discovery.
It is clear to see that the black has green in it as it fades out.
This is directly from the ink tank, not the profile, didn't go through the printer, direct from tank to media. It has everything to do with 'chemistry' and not the profile, printer or anything else.

You are mistaken. You think that you're printing in black and white, perhaps because that's the effect you're trying to achieve, but let me assure you that you are not. You're still printing CMYK and your profile in concert with your rendering intents is creating the variations that are causing you premature baldness. If you think this is not the case, insert empty C, M, and Y cartridges properly screwed with to make your tackle think that they are not empty or replace them will all K cartridges and see what happens. This will be an expensive experiment, since you'll wreak some level of havoc with your printer should you actually try it.

Black ink [K] is black, all black, and nothing but black. The problem most run into is the inability to lay down enough of it so that it looks satisfyingly black. Even offset and other types of printing experience this problem, that's why they make jumbo rollers. In digital printing some find adding various minor percentages of C, M, and Y to K to achieve a tone that the operator thinks looks black. At least to them. But then the mid tones are put in harm's way.

Printing in black and white without mid tones drifting here and there, more often to sepias and greens, is one of the most difficult things to achieve
in this flavor of printing.

One step to take, if you haven't already done so, is use your rendering intents to turn off color correction for every element except for bitmaps. For bitmaps use 'Perceptual'. At least then you will should only see the phenomena in bitmaps. You can further diddle the output by farkeling around with whatever profile you might be using.

 

[cdiesel]

Absolutely, 100% a profiling issue. Not ink.

Very easy way to demonstrate this, as it appears you're using a Roland: Use the RolandCOLOR spot colors. You can print the spectrum from white to black using the BK01A-BK21A series, and achieve an array of true grays, using nothing but percentages of black. Problem is, the second you step away from the spot colors, profiles take over and you're going to see shades or green/pink in your greys. Get your equipment professionally profiled and you won't have these problems.

A simple tweak that may get you by is to increase your magenta and take out some cyan if you're seeing green. Also increase the black.

 

[SideFX]

re: You are mistaken. You think that you're printing in black and white,..........
& You're still printing CMYK and your profile.......................................

The point I am trying to stress here is that I am not printing the sample ink in the test displayed on this page, it was done outside of the machine. No printing, no profile, no ics, no other colors involved, just the black from the tank. The test is directly from the bag inside the tank, onto a paint brush, and onto media, and it shows green tint.

re: The problem most run into is the inability to lay down enough of it so that it looks satisfyingly black.,
Totally, and thank you for stating that crutial point. And that's my problem as I'm rendering art, through the Roland, using the same techniques as when I was air brushing with paints and expecting the same results. However get green tints instead of grey as it fades out. Same as what happens when done outside of printer use. So that indicates it is the contents of the black itself, not the printing as the results are identical.

The Black is not pure black, and is what I'm trying to source for my Roland print work. If I were painting, say with Liquitex, AutoAir, PPG, etc... the black would be jet black, regardless of saturation or opacity.

I have attached another couple sample images here. On the right of one, I have stripped the color out of it so that one could see the color in the image to the left of it, which is not grey as the other 'stripped' image is.
The other image is a snip from a working black and white file, and to it's right, you can see the greenish tinge as the opacity value drops off and the white from behind reflects light back throug it.
So in respect of getting more accurate printing, I am seeking jet black ink.
Does it exist from any one?

 

[cdiesel]

You're modifying camera images with a computer. How is this any representation of what's in the ink?

If you're serious about color, get your machine profiled. Professionally.

 

[SideFX]

You're modifying camera images with a computer. How is this any representation of what's in the ink?

If you're serious about color, get your machine profiled. Professionally.

Yes, the image was enhanced only to show what it looks like when I strip the color out of the image taken with camera. The color is visible to the naked eye.

I don't know why I'm not able to get my point across here, though if you take an old unused black tank, open it, do a swatch test as I have done, you will also see that where it bleeds off, fall off, fades, it will not show as black to grey. That is what I'm saying. The Ecosol Max black is not pure black and begins to 'show it's true colors' when dropping through various levels of saturation. It has green in it's makeup.

 

[SideFX]

I guess the reason I may not be comprehending is my background in paint.
If black is not true black, then I can't understand how introducing any other color after that point could possibly knock out the tinge issue I refer to.

I'm not trying to be difficult, but I am frustrated and seeking a viable solution.

@cdiesel When you stated: If you're serious about color, get your machine profiled.
Does this mean that getting a profile made will solve this problem once and for all?
Where does one find someone to do the profiling for the printer?
What is the ballpark cost of such? 200. 500. 800.?
Will this absolutely make light shades of grey stay in the greys without any color in it?

 

[MikePro]

you're never gonna get the TRUE shades of black/grey that you're referring to unless you're printing white ink... imo.

Proper profiling and full use of the CMYK makes any "Black" appear truely "Black" when you add a little bit of magenta and cyan to the mix...
when I only print Black ink, it doesn't look nearly as dark as when I just let my profiles do what they were programmed to and make my "100% black" actually K60% M20% C20% Y10%, or whatever.
you'll notice that your greyscale works the same way.... look close enough to any commercial print (with a 50x+ glass) and you'll notice they have specks of cyan/magenta in their blacks/greys, as well.

otherwise, if you're still hard-set on trying to print Black ink only.... the only solution is dialing up your saturation/ink limits, but your grays are gonna still look like crap.

oooooor maybe go a whole-new direction and stock up on "true-black" media and just print with white inks? ijdk

 

[MikePro]

Where does one find someone to do the profiling for the printer?
What is the ballpark cost of such? 200. 500. 800.?

talk to your distributor... they usually charge $100/hr, which means at least $200 for just showing up. All-in-all you'll spend $500-700, most likely.
it sucks, but its worth the money just to have your machine dialed-in for years of production.


p.s. most media manufacturers and distributors actually privide FREE profiles for their media on your machine. sometimes a quick phone call to your distributor can result in NO CHARGE profiling over the phone.

 

[GAC05]

I wonder if the basic premise of trying to do fine-art with a solvent printer might be the issue.
I'm not saying it can't be done but I don't think solvent printers mainstay is in the fine art reproduction area.
When I had the right media loaded into my Encad 6 color water based printer it could do some very nice stuff - but the output was not intended to go on the sides of vehicles or be displayed outside for an extended period of time.

So maybe it is a case of the wrong tool for the job - or I could be totally out in left field here.....

wayne k
guam usa

 

[SideFX]

talk to your distributor... they usually charge $100/hr, which means at least $200 for just showing up. All-in-all you'll spend $500-700, most likely.
it sucks, but its worth the money just to have your machine dialed-in for years of production.


p.s. most media manufacturers and distributors actually privide FREE profiles for their media on your machine. sometimes a quick phone call to your distributor can result in NO CHARGE profiling over the phone.

I'll do that and call my rep to see what they offer.
Thank you all for your understanding and valued opinions.

 

[bayshorecreations]

I worked in the offset printing industry for many years and we had the same issues that you are talking about here. With that being said, everyone else here is correct and so are you. What I mean is that yes you are right when you say that black ink is not truly black.
Our fix for it in offset printing as well as my fix for it here on a solvent printer is to adjust your color profile to a point where you are happy with the blacks in your art.
A good starting place is to set it where your blacks will print as 30% M /30% Y /60% C /100% K
Again its a starting point but if you print a test square of just 100% black next to a square that is 60C, 30M, 30Y, 100K You will see that it will be a much richer black.
If you are not very familiar with color profiling then leave it to an expert because you will be pulling you hair out quickly.
Good luck.

 

[SideFX]

Thank you for noticing what I was stating about the black composition. It's hard to descibe, and I knew what I was seeing and know the difference with jet black.

That aside, if I try the 30% M /30% Y /60% C /100% K settings, is this strictly a profile when I want to print just in the black and white?
Should I also switch to CMYK when doing B&W printing, or stay in RGB?

Am I correct in understanding that if other colors are added in, that will trick the eye into believing it is more black by way of diffusion?

 

[bayshorecreations]

You will need to set it up so that your darkest tones will be that dark and then have it fade out from there.

Yes, if you add in more color it will trick the eye so to speak and make it look like a nice rich black.

Sometimes just adding a bit of Cyan (like a 60 or 80% kicker) can do this trick also. Really depends on a lot of variables like the media you are printing on, etc.

 

[SideFX]

I wonder if the basic premise of trying to do fine-art with a solvent printer might be the issue.
I'm not saying it can't be done but I don't think solvent printers mainstay is in the fine art reproduction area.
When I had the right media loaded into my Encad 6 color water based printer it could do some very nice stuff - but the output was not intended to go on the sides of vehicles or be displayed outside for an extended period of time.

So maybe it is a case of the wrong tool for the job - or I could be totally out in left field here.....

wayne k
guam usa

Hi Wayne, sorry I didn't notice your post earlier.
You might have a point there, however I am more than pleased with the output of my Roland at this time, just the black being an issue for doing graphics for guys with black panels. They notice right away, and scream at me for it. That has been costing me, as I'm good about it and offer substitution/replacement. Here being the latest:

I'm NOT satisfied at all with the color....the gun metal on the
computer screen looks totally different...they actually almost have a
dark forest green tint....my ski is white black and grey and these do not flow with the bike.....

and another

I opened it up at work here yesterday to look at just one piece and thought it looked great! I got it home last night and rolled it out and I noticed it is very “green” in color!?!? The picture on your website is “silver and white”. I held one piece up against my sled last night and it is not going to work.

 

[jasonx]

You need to profile your monitor along with your profile if you expect to print what you see on your screen.

Monitors are RGB our printers are CMYK.

 

[heyskull]

I will put my bit in here.......
You will never get the machine printing perfect Black to Grey to White fades.
It has always been an issue with CMYK machines and the way they have to render it.
Get over it you can't mend the problem that if you use another colour with Black it will have colour in it.
yes I have had problems with greys but it is all about adjusting it till you think you will get away with it. It will never be perfect their are to many variations in a black and white picture.

SC

 

[mark in tx]

Some salient points,

Your complete production system has to be profiled, from monitor to software to RIP to printer.

Paint does not equal solvent ink, you can't compare them.

A 4 or 6 color solvent printer will not match a 12 color water based printer output.

I heartily recommend Mike at www.correctcolor.org to give you the best results you can expect from your system.