New Machine Purchase coming soon, but which one?

[Bly]

I'm also looking at a new printer.
Question I have is local support.
For someone in my situation with support no closer than a few thousand miles by commercial (expensive) air which would be the wiser purchase?
The added complexity of the latex machine over a simple 4 color eco solvent worries me.
I've worked enough with my Mutoh to be semi-confident that I can tear it down and change out parts to get it back up.
From reading some of the latex issues here I'm not sure I could do it.
Are the HPs more reliable compared to a good eco sol?

wayne k
guam usa

I'd probably stick with an ecosol printer then.
From past experience I'd be hesitant to have only one HP as my only printer.
They are usually quite reliable but are too complex to repair by yourself and have a multitude of sensors which can throw obscure error codes.
Parts can be difficult to source too, occasionally.

 

[SightLine]

^ Yes, but the Latex print faster, and 220v iss more efficient...

Compared to the new Mimaki JV300 the HP 360 is realistically not any faster.... Also, if one is so inclined to do so you can run the Mimaki on 240v which then makes the efficiency gap between it and the HP even greater yet. We do run our older Mimaki JV33 on 240v as well as our servers, SAN, and networking equipment.

 

[Vital Designs]

OK, here is my "no emotion" answer.

I have a JV33 still running in my shop alongside a L260 and a L360. There will be growing pains when you switch to any new machine even within the same manufacturer. I love(oops, emotion) the JV33, it has been a workhorse and after 7 years can still produce great prints. I have had to work on it and maintain it to keep it running smoothly.

When I got the L260 a few years ago I realized it didn't replace the JV33 completely (slow, harder to load, limited substrates it could print on and color issues). Over time The color issues were resolved with correct profiling and it ended up being our "wrap" printer. All the positives have already been discussed (no smell, no outgas, etc). The JV33 still saw action in the shop.

I had visions of the L360 replacing the Mimaki as it was faster, easier to use and had a larger array of medias it could print on. After some initial growing pains It has turned out to be the go-to printer in the shop. The mimaki is used for quick odd jobs or real weird materials that the latex can't handle.

The comment that the HP's are throw away printers is true just like everything else built today. If you plan on keeping it forever then new technology will force you out of business anyway. They are supposed to create a return on investment and if you can't realize that in the sort term you should not be in the market.

As many others here can attest the HP's are workhorses too and even the original 25500 could put some decent sqft through them.

I am sold on the HP's from a business standpoint not emotional.

My advise would be get a L360 and keep a JV3 as a backup and for matching certain repeat jobs.

There are die hard Mutoh fans here and I had a Mutoh that was boat anchor from the day I bought it so I suppose anyone can have a bad printer.

 

[Split76]

i don't know why quoting is not working, but sightline said : HP needs dual 240V 16A circuits (they are pulling 4600 watts when printing)
Thats not true. l26500 uses 2.7 kW (printing); 4.8 kW at heating.
I have had more than enough problems with my 2 year old 26500 but i still could never go back to eco-solvent (i used to have rolands). Who the hell have enough time or space to dry all those prints? I need to laminate or cut instantly, even that excludes all eco-solvent printers.

 

[Speedsterbeast]

OK, here is my "no emotion" answer.

I have a JV33 still running in my shop alongside a L260 and a L360. There will be growing pains when you switch to any new machine even within the same manufacturer. I love(oops, emotion) the JV33, it has been a workhorse and after 7 years can still produce great prints. I have had to work on it and maintain it to keep it running smoothly.

When I got the L260 a few years ago I realized it didn't replace the JV33 completely (slow, harder to load, limited substrates it could print on and color issues). Over time The color issues were resolved with correct profiling and it ended up being our "wrap" printer. All the positives have already been discussed (no smell, no outgas, etc). The JV33 still saw action in the shop.

I had visions of the L360 replacing the Mimaki as it was faster, easier to use and had a larger array of medias it could print on. After some initial growing pains It has turned out to be the go-to printer in the shop. The mimaki is used for quick odd jobs or real weird materials that the latex can't handle.

The comment that the HP's are throw away printers is true just like everything else built today. If you plan on keeping it forever then new technology will force you out of business anyway. They are supposed to create a return on investment and if you can't realize that in the sort term you should not be in the market.

As many others here can attest the HP's are workhorses too and even the original 25500 could put some decent sqft through them.

I am sold on the HP's from a business standpoint not emotional.

My advise would be get a L360 and keep a JV3 as a backup and for matching certain repeat jobs.

There are die hard Mutoh fans here and I had a Mutoh that was boat anchor from the day I bought it so I suppose anyone can have a bad printer.

Thanks for such a great detailed description. I'm in the exact same boat. Even wired my new shop for the 220 outlets. But scared to make the transition. I guess keeping the old Roland and just phasing out slowly is the best bet for any new printer I may buy. But I's probably keep the old one as a backup for printing and cutting.

 

[Andy D]

In my opinion, that's all you're really getting here, mostly emotional opinions...... I bought this, therefore it's good.. I heard about that, therefore it's bad. Lottsa hearsay and emotions flying around. Some have been lemons and that will happen on both sides of the aisle, but what you should really do, is narrow it down to 2 or 3 you like, can afford and want and take YOUR files to them and see first hand everything involved. Make the best decision you can and make it work. We all have our machinery which will have some shortcomings on this or that, but you learn to work around those things.


Good luck.................

Great post Gino! So to summarize what Gino means "Mimaki and Roland solvent printers are Heaven sent and HP is the the Devil and latex ink is his blood."

:U Rock:

 

[JJM7288]

Our choice to buy HP latex was purely emotional, we love our employees and do not want them exposed to solvent ink.

 

[player]

I had it explained to me that there are the same amount or more toxins coming off latex. Just you can't smell them.

 

[P Wagner]

I had it explained to me that there are the same amount or more toxins coming off latex. Just you can't smell them.

You are free to believe whatever you like.

If you prefer to base those beliefs on published MSDS documents (which must be made available by US law for all inks sold in this country), and multiple independent UL Certification programs, you will likely come to a different conclusion.

Paul

 

[player]

You are free to believe whatever you like.

If you prefer to base those beliefs on published MSDS documents (which must be made available by US law for all inks sold in this country), and multiple independent UL Certification programs, you will likely come to a different conclusion.

Paul

HP wrote that, so I would not really trust them to publish their own sheet, but it does show HP inks contain VOC's. They are Volatile Organic Compounds.

Wikipedia: "Volatile organic compounds (VOCs) are organic chemicals that have a high vapor pressure at ordinary room temperature. Their high vapor pressure results from a low boiling point, which causes large numbers of molecules to evaporate or sublimate from the liquid or solid form of the compound and enter the surrounding air. For example, formaldehyde, which evaporates from paint, has a boiling point of only –19 °C (–2 °F)."

So perhaps the industry expert who told me about the hazards was referring to the VOC's reacting and becoming airborne at a high rate due to the extreme heat the HP machines need to cure the ink.

 

[FrankW]

I had it explained to me that there are the same amount or more toxins coming off latex. Just you can't smell them.

Where should it come from? The ink contains of mainly water.

The suggestion of "Castek Resources" is good: check it yourself.

 

[player]

Where should it come from? The ink contains of mainly water.

The suggestion of "Castek Resources" is good: check it yourself.

I'm good. Thanks.

 

[ProColorGraphics]

Going from starting with Rolands, then having all 3 of the HP latex printers, and now added a new Epson S70, it all depends on what you want to use it for. I am currently using a HP 360 and an Epson S70. It if has to be laminated and cut right away, I use the latex every time. I added on the Epson for the better print quality and the white and silver ink. After using a latex for the the past 3 years, you forget how much the solvent makes the adhesive gooey!

i have had issues with every printer to some extent, but have always had it taken care of right away. I guess I have been lucky on that part. So overall I would say it depends on what you want to print exactly. If I had to only choose one, I'd probably stick with the latex.

 

[accentk]

HP latex l25500

had this machine since its concept, 5years at least it is a workhorse, prints great. great support looking forward to getting hp360

 

[psbc2009]

360 - Banner

How is the 360 printing Banner? double sided printing any easier? We use forward wound from grimco.

 

[David Snider]

We have had 25500, 26500, and now the L360. Wouldn't change from latex. Had 3 JV3s in the past which were good at the time, but life and technology moves on. The latex maintenance is hardly none compared to the Mimaki printers. HP printheads are $129.00 compared to ??? with the Mimaki's, and the HP printheads just snap in place with zero downtime. The new L360s print much faster than L26500. Finally, HPs support is through HP and not the printer distributor and this alone is one main reason we are happy with HP latex. Would not go back.
Happy, Happy, Happy with latex.

 

[ProColorGraphics]

How is the 360 printing Banner? double sided printing any easier? We use forward wound from grimco.

I think double sided printing about the same as the 260. it's faster and a little better on gloss. I always use matte, so I can't say that part from experience. Forward wound works fine, but you won't want to use it for double sided as you'll be able to see the backside image through it. You need the block out layer that comes in the 2 sided media.

 

[myront]

Most who "love" this printer (HP360) have no experience with any other out there. We were using a Mimaki for years with superb results. Great colors and super easy to use. A true plug and play printer using RasterLink Pro RIP. We didn't even bother with different profiles. Whatever profile we used was good for all media we used. Single and double sided banner, photo paper, clear vinyl, wrap vinyl, reflective, window perf, fabric etc. And it was easy to train new employees. Training for the HP's take a lot longer.
Be prepared to run hundreds of tests with the HP. We still can't get "vivid/rich" colors. We had one full side of a vehicle wrap completely installed when our mimaki broke. Now we can't get the print on the HP to match. We may have to resort to removing two days worth of wrap work and start completely over.
Also the HP is a pita to change print media. You have three rods you have to insert into the roll. One for the media itself, one for the take up reel and one for the tensioner. We had many problems with the vinyl wanting to roll off the backing paper when trying to autoload. We had to resort to manual loading the media. We've had about 6 paper jams in the week and a half we've been using it.
You have to set profiles for each and every media you use, another pita
We had HP's 10 years ago and they sucked then too.
jmtcw

p.s. sorry HP just telling it like it is

 

[Johnny Best]

Most who "love" this printer (HP360) have no experience with any other out there. We were using a Mimaki for years with superb results. Great colors and super easy to use. A true plug and play printer using RasterLink Pro RIP. We didn't even bother with different profiles. Whatever profile we used was good for all media we used. Single and double sided banner, photo paper, clear vinyl, wrap vinyl, reflective, window perf, fabric etc. And it was easy to train new employees. Training for the HP's take a lot longer.
Be prepared to run hundreds of tests with the HP. We still can't get "vivid/rich" colors. We had one full side of a vehicle wrap completely installed when our mimaki broke. Now we can't get the print on the HP to match. We may have to resort to removing two days worth of wrap work and start completely over.
Also the HP is a pita to change print media. You have three rods you have to insert into the roll. One for the media itself, one for the take up reel and one for the tensioner. We had many problems with the vinyl wanting to roll off the backing paper when trying to autoload. We had to resort to manual loading the media. We've had about 6 paper jams in the week and a half we've been using it.
You have to set profiles for each and every media you use, another pita
We had HP's 10 years ago and they sucked then too.
jmtcw

p.s. sorry HP just telling it like it is

I am looking for a new printer, looked at the HP and read a lot of threads on likes and dislikes. Have you seen or know of anyone with a Mimaki latex machine. Worked in a shop a few years ago that had a Mimaki and it was a workhorse.

 

[Correct Color]

I've spent some time profiling a Mimaki Latex at a prison in Oklahoma. It actually had some cool features, including orange in its inkset, and the ability to get further out into the orange ranges of L*a*b* than any other machine I have ever profiled.

Prints were pretty nice too.

At 25 pass.

Yes. Twenty-five pass. Below 25 pass the ink pretty much coalesced up into basketballs.

(Oh, and I'm in the process right now of working with two clients regarding some serious color consistency issues with current generation HP latex machines.

Both of them had 26500's, and neither of them had these issues with those machines. They both do a lot of wraps, and like to use grey in their wraps, and of course if a machine begins to drift, you'll see it in the grey first.

There is definitely something going on with these machines, and as of now, I do not know what it is. I was actually just sitting and wondering if something in the ink optimizer might be introducing some element that could account for the inconsistency.

All I know is that at present, I would not buy one, nor recommend to any client that they do.

Of all I see out there, I still say the Seiko M64S if you have the jack, and an 8 color (CMYKcmkO) SureColor if you don't.)


Mike Adams
Correct Color