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Newbie Designer Here

SignDesign(her)

New Member
Hello,

I am a junior designer and I would like to say "hello," I started working about 10 months ago. I have a background in design, but I am new to this field. I do have a bachelor's degree in Design, and I am very eager to learn this trade.

What would you say is the best piece of advice you can give to a new designer in signs?
What other websites or databases would you consider useful to design?

Thanks! I look forward to utilizing this community and exploring more about the foundations of the trade.

Warmly,
Mikayla
 
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Boudica

I'm here for Educational Purposes
Welcome! I too am a designer 25+ years. I've only been in this industry for about 8... I'm still a newbie.
 

SignDesign(her)

New Member
Welcome! I too am a designer 25+ years. I've only been in this industry for about 8... I'm still a newbie.
Hello Boudica, thanks for the introduction, I see you're also in WA. It is nice to know that someone else is relatively close by. I am not sure where in Washington you're in. Would you happen to know of any local sign design/production groups in the Washington area specifically? My company is associated with the Northwest Sign Council, but we have found that NWSC is not very active when it comes to making connections. We find that the most they do is just deliver us quarterly magazines/emails.

Would you happen to know of any smaller, more regional groups to WA only? Let me know, if not, we can start one! I'd love to connect to the experts in this field and learn from them.
 

pro-UP

New Member
Hello,

I am a junior designer and I would like to say "hello," I started working about 10 months ago. I have a background in design, but I am new to this field. I do have a bachelor's degree in Design, and I am very eager to learn this trade.

What would you say is the best piece of advice you can give to a new designer in signs?
What other websites or databases would you consider useful to design?

Thanks! I look forward to utilizing this community and exploring more about the foundations of the trade.

Warmly,
Mikayla
Hi Mikayla,

I am not a designer , but I have a 30 yr vet on my team that would be willing to answer some questions if you want to connect. rlm@pro-up.net. One thing I've seen on here is the high need for technical design. Someone that can turn a pretty picture into an actual, producible sign. There seems to be a great deal of demand for technical skill.

Good luck and always charge for your work. Just one more small change.... nope. Don't fall for it. Give them a defined set of revisions and inform them when they have exceeded those and will have to pay more. Good luck!

Rachel
 

Bobby H

Arial Sucks.
Welcome to the forum!

SignDesign(her) said:
What would you say is the best piece of advice you can give to a new designer in signs?

If you haven't already been doing so, look at a LOT of signs. Not just to admire the ones that look really good for inspiration, but to break down what makes a good sign effective. I've seen really cool looking signs that are sadly ineffective because they're not legible at a satisfactory distance. Function is just as important as form.

The design and illustration classes I took in art school said next to nothing about design for outdoor advertising. Classes back then were very stilted to the printed page. Now it's print, web and video -with signs and outdoor advertising still being treated like the red-headed step child. Most graphic designers who get into the sign industry have to do a lot of new learning, even if they already have a 4 year degree.

Another tip, again if you haven't already been doing this, prioritize the amount of time you spend on projects according to what the project is worth. It's easy to "go down the rabbit hole" putting too work into a job that doesn't justify that amount of effort.

On the other hand, don't rush things or use bad standards of practices. One thing I really dislike is designs with artificially squeezed/stretched type. It looks horrid. Some people just apply default Arial to something and distort the lettering to fit the space. They can't bother to scroll down the font menu to a more effective choice. A better approach is learning all the "tricks" your design applications have to offer to speed up your workflow and make your work more efficient. You get the work done faster and still looking professional as well.
 
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bob

It's better to have two hands than one glove.
First lesson. Only talentless lackweights 'design' signs. You lay out a sign, you don't design it. Big difference. This harkens from a day not all that long ago when a sign writer [that's the correct term] approached a substrate [no one ever called it that] with a Stabillo or piece of charcoal, roughly sketched in the various elements, and painted it. The brushes made the letters. On something that was supposed to be a reasonable reproduction of something, a pounce pattern might be used. Just laying it out, not much designing going on.
 

DL Signs

Never go against the family
Welcome to the madness. :welcome:
I started almost 60 years ago hand lettering trucks, went into digital design almost 30 years ago doing web elements for programmers, then into the display market & signage. Retired once, and back at it again.

Best advice I can give is get good at redrawing logos and other artwork for customers who don't have, or even know what a vector file is.
Seriously, we all spend way too much time doing this :oops:

Other than that, with signs, layouts need to match what the circumstances are to be successful. Exterior, as people are driving by, they only have a few seconds to look at and take in what's on one, simplicity, and good contrasting colors rule the day. Interior signage where people can stop and look is where you can get more creative. Like Bobby H says, look at signs, see what works and what doesn't. Good luck to ya!
 

Johnny Best

Active Member
I agree with Bob, anybody can layout, design or draw a sign, layout, whatever, does not take to much talent as observing people on here over the years. Remember to listen.
 

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GaSouthpaw

Profane and profane accessories.
Ask questions. Then, ask more.
- Once you've got a design done- ask your shop's lead fabricator how (or if) the design can be built. The easier it is to build, the quicker it's out the door.
- If the fabricator tells you something can't be built the way you've designed it, ask what changes need to be made and make them. Don't let your appreciation of your brilliant design get in the way of real world conditions.
- Ask about materials. Like, what size sheets your shop can process, what's too big (or too small), where a sign that exceeds your shop's limits would have to be seamed to be built, etc. Whenever possible, make your designs fit standard material sizes (not just raw sheets, but any vinyls, digital media, etc., too).
- When specifying builds (if that's in your purview), remember what was just mentioned. Also, get yourself color charts for every brand of cut vinyl your company uses. Keep a PMS book handy for printing and paint colors, and a color chart from whatever paint system your company uses. Keep in mind that digital printing is CMYK and use the appropriate PMS chart for that.
- There will always be something that makes you scratch your head, so don't be afraid to ask for help. Snarky responses aside, there are plenty of people on this forum with a tremendous amount of knowledge of how to do things. I've been at this a long time, and I still manage to learn stuff.
Good luck.
 

AndersHerp

Something, something Dark Side
I hope you like remaking people's logos! Because it never fails that someone will bring you a low quality JPEG or PNG file, and want it blown up to be put on a sign. This isn't like web design, signs are big and require vector artwork to replicate what you show on the computer. I get use to looking at different things I have designed on a computer screen or piece of paper, but once it is actually built in our fabrication shop it sets in, "Oh yeah, I designed a big ass sign!"
 

ProSignTN

New Member
GaSouthpaw offered good advise. A fellow signman once told me he loved his new designers work, but everything he drew was 49" tall. Meaning he had no concept of how to build what he designed. I have acquired and still add to a folder containing such useful information as building material weights and sizes, available fastener sizes, LED load charts, local code requirements, and the list goes on and on. Little things like keeping EMT conduit sizes on file allow for the pole pockets in banners to be just perfect. The more you know, the cleaner, faster and easier to fab and install your designs will be. Oh, yeah and read Mike Stevens book on layout.
 

GaSouthpaw

Profane and profane accessories.
Oh yeah- absolutely keep a file/folder/whatever of common sizes and such as ProSignTN said. I keep digital versions of that (and some in hard copy, too) on my PC @ work, my laptop @ home, my desktop PC @ home, on a flash drive, and backed up via Carbonite. Any time I run across something new I might need to know, I toss it in. I've got stuff going back to CasMate!
The digital versions keep me from having to recreate stuff over and over. Normally, all I have to do is tweak verbiage (if that) and colors.
 

UberDapr

New Member
Spend time in a shop if you can. Learn your fabrication materials and understand their capabilities. Make friends with Fabricators and pick their brain. They carry valuable tips and tricks others may never know.
 

signbrad

New Member
Read

The most important book you will ever read on sign composition and layout is the book, Mastering Layout—On the Art of Eye Appeal, by Mike Stevens. (1986. ST Media Group).

Mastering Layout

In this book, Stevens takes the mystery out of creating effective sign layouts. His approach emphasizes that good design is a learned skill and not something you're born with or without. Stevens provides tools to understand principles, such as dominance, visual hierarchy, proximity, rhythm and the use of negative space. Many of us believe this is the best book ever written on layout! I date my entire career as either "Before Mike Stevens" or "After Mike Stevens." I re-read this book every year and regularly give it as a gift to aspiring sign artists.

Sign composition is special
Sign composition is the red-haired step-child of the graphic design industry. It has special requirements placed upon it that are not always taught in design courses. For example, the average sign is viewed for probably 1.5 to 1.6 seconds, and so requires almost instantaneous reading and digesting. In addition, distance reading is a huge factor, so legibility and readability are more important in sign composition than in any other segment of the graphic design industry. Most artists in the sign industry as a whole are mediocre. A very few are outstanding. The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well among us sign goobers. But reading can fix this problem. Further, learning to manipulate software is not the same as learning graphic design, any more than learning to use screwdrivers and wire strippers is learning to be an electrician. Anybody can learn software. But only a special few are good at sign layout and composition.

Here is an old review of Mastering Layout by the late Steve Shortread—

Review by Steve Shortreed
The SignMan...Fergus, Ontario
"If I was ever forced to give up all my books except for one, this is the book I would keep. I can't think of any one source that has helped me design better and more effective signs over the years than this gift the late Mike Stevens left to us all.
The first chapter on Natural Layout is a goldmine once you understand the ideas Mike is talking about. I had the privilege of sitting in on 2 of his workshops over the years and I have seen longtime signmakers instantly drop bad habits and improve their layouts following the suggestions in this book. It's simple, but powerful stuff!
What Mike really did with this book was give us a vocabulary to describe design elements that were just abstract ideas in the past. Terms like negative space, line value, formal vs informal layout and my personal favorite...compulsive graphic relativity.
I could go on forever about the virtues of this book. Every new employee at our shop was given a copy of their own. I suggest you do the same."


..............................

A second book to acquire is The Elements of Graphic Design by Alex W. White (First Edition, 2002, and Second Edition, 2011, Allworth Press. Get either one. The first edition is dirt cheap, but in some ways easier. The second edition is big with lots of pictures. The graphics are superior in the second, and the writing is more polished in spots. Get both. Oh, there is now a third edition (2022) Get all three). The first chapter alone in White's book—on negative space—is worth the cost of this book. Chapter six, explaining the importance of dominance, is also worth the cost of the book. Hell, the short preface is full of wisdom. And the chapters are arranged in such a way that they can be read individually without losing much continuity, a boon to short attention spans.

The Elements of Graphic Design

.............................

Some additional books that are valuable:

On Web Typography by Jason Santa-Maria. The principles he explains are valuable for sign makers. He explains saccades, which is the way our eyes read. And he shows the difference between readability and legibility—crucial to understand for a sign maker.

Two books by John McWadeGraphics for Business and How to Design Cool Stuff. McWade is a genius in explaining layout and composition as it applies to numerous design projects. Almost everything he says can be applied to sign work. The illustrations in his books are like pure gold.

Layout and Design for Calligraphers by Alan Furber. Don't let the title throw you off. This simple book does not just apply to calligraphy but is full of insight for sign people. His illustrations showing how the principle of dominance works, and how white space enhances it, are priceless. Look at page 24 and you will never view large lettering the same again.

Logo design

Logo design is historically a particularly weak area for sign makers. Many of us are good at illustration and drawing, but suck at logo design. Much of the reason for this has to do with flawed expectations as to the purpose of a logo.
For an eye-opening discussion of logo design, and its job, watch this video featuring Sagi Haviv of Chermayeff & Geismar & Haviv (New York). Pay particular attention to the story surrounding the development of the Chase Bank logo by Tom Geismar.

What is a Good Logo? Sagi Haviv


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"By far, the greatest weakness in the sign industry today is in the area of layout/design/composition. Most sign makers lack expertise. This is no exaggeration. And many have bad habits, making the same mistakes over and over. Inferior layout is so commonplace it is viewed as normal. But this is nothing new. It's just that now, with easy access to computers and design software, the sign industry is overwhelmed with what's bad and inferior. Paul Rand said a long time ago, "The public is more familiar with bad design than good design. It is, in effect, conditioned to prefer bad design, because that is what it lives with."

Brad in Kansas City
 
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Billct2

Active Member
Brad gave the best advice, read up on those subjects, especially Mike Jackson's book.
Second, s sign has a job to do, keep it simple and legible, what looks good on a computer screen doesn't always work in real life.
Oh, and if you ask questions here have a thick skin, lots of angry keyboard warriors.
Also, Bob, when I learned to paint signs in the 70s we were called Sign Painters, Sign Writers are in England, where they call Sign Installation Sign Fixing :rolleyes:
 
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