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Next CNC Router... suggestions please.

B

Bxtr

New Member
Hello all,

We currently have a 10 year old Multicam 1000 series 5x10 router. It is equipped with the vision registration system, no tool changer (Base model at the time).

It's been a good machine; we are just looking for that next step up in speed, ease of use, a tool changer, and any automation as well.

The current machine has had a few hiccups and the service... let's just say it barely existed. I know that Multicam has been bought out since, so I can't speak to that. We have a private tech out of Denver who used to work for Multicam, but being located in SD, it is troublesome to get people out here to work on machinery.

The Multicam has been a good machine with very little downtime. We've had to replace a spindle; we also had a stepper motor board burn out. Now nothing is wrong with the machine, we are just trying to plan for the future.

We are lucky: in our current building we have space, so two years ago we purchased a Summa F1612. We are just using this as a digital cutter; we didn't buy the router tooling. We cut vinyl and soft materials up to 3mm PVC. It works great and reduces a nice bottleneck in our workflow. We love how automated it is and the ease of use to cross train employees.

So we are just looking at a CNC to route items printed on our UV flatbed: thicker, denser items like 1/4" aluminum and 1/2" acrylic...possibly HDU Foam down the road...

We've been looking into an AXYZ Infinite 5x10 or a Biesse Rover Plast J 5x10. We were convinced the Biesse was going to be our next router but are open to any feedback.

Thanks,
Bxtr
 
astro8

astro8

New Member
Bxtr said:
Hello all,

We currently have a 10 year old Multicam 1000 series 5x10 router. It is equipped with the vision registration system, no tool changer (Base model at the time).

It's been a good machine; we are just looking for that next step up in speed, ease of use, a tool changer, and any automation as well.

The current machine has had a few hiccups and the service... let's just say it barely existed. I know that Multicam has been bought out since, so I can't speak to that. We have a private tech out of Denver who used to work for Multicam, but being located in SD, it is troublesome to get people out here to work on machinery.

The Multicam has been a good machine with very little downtime. We've had to replace a spindle; we also had a stepper motor board burn out. Now nothing is wrong with the machine, we are just trying to plan for the future.

We are lucky: in our current building we have space, so two years ago we purchased a Summa F1612. We are just using this as a digital cutter; we didn't buy the router tooling. We cut vinyl and soft materials up to 3mm PVC. It works great and reduces a nice bottleneck in our workflow. We love how automated it is and the ease of use to cross train employees.

So we are just looking at a CNC to route items printed on our UV flatbed: thicker, denser items like 1/4" aluminum and 1/2" acrylic...possibly HDU Foam down the road...

We've been looking into an AXYZ Infinite 5x10 or a Biesse Rover Plast J 5x10. We were convinced the Biesse was going to be our next router but are open to any feedback.

Thanks,
Bxtr
Click to expand...

We have a Biesse Rover Plast S 43/22 (14x7) and it's been flawless. The toolchanger, drillblock and 3 Busch pumps (you'll most likely have 2 pumps) are a dream to have coming from manual tool change and blower type vac pumps. I've run a lot of cnc routers in my time and this is far and away the best I've used.

Factor in that you'll want EnRoute to send files to the control, need it if you have a drill block. bSolid and Biesseworks are far too cumbersome for efficient sign making, you'll end up pulling your hair out. You'll also need good dust extraction and power. You'll also want the lube/mister if you are cutting aluminium. If it's a new machine Biesse may do a site inspection but they'll tell you what you need regardless.

There's a learning curve to operating a Biesse, you'll curse and scream but once you are properly familiar with it and learn its weird ways, you'll love it. You can jump on the phone and get Biesse support, although I've never had to use it.
There's a very active Facebook group with Biesse techs on hand as well.

I sound like a fanboy, I suppose I am. haha
 
G

GaSouthpaw

Profane and profane accessories.
Glad you've had good luck with your Biesse, astro8 - the one I used was a freaking nightmare from the get-go (95% of it, was 100% Biesse's fault, 5% was company management). I posted a detailed list of what went wrong with them. For that reason, my advice would be to run the other direction from them.
I've used AXYZ, MultiCam (at four different shops), Biesse, and CamTech (no longer in business- and, really, a hobbyist-level router) and I have always had good luck with MultiCam. I'd definitely recommend it over the others.
 
B

bowtievega

Premium Subscriber
Our very first piece of CNC equipment was an AXYZ 4008 router. Basic, no tool changer, mist system for aluminum cutting. It was a decent machine, didn't have a lot of problems with it. Not very fast but it was pretty old tech as far as routers go. Their new machines look really nice and I think are on par with everyone else. Ours ran a proprietary software but i'm not sure about the new machines. We purchased a used Multicam 5'x10' 5000 series machine maybe 10 years ago? It is a 2005 vintage but had a Multicam service tech go thru it and add a camera system, upgrade the motherboard etc. It was a demo machine for some company and was used very little and was in almost perfect shape. It has a tool changer, 11 hp spindle, mister. Thing is a beast. Cuts great, lots of power and weighs alot so not much vibration when cutting thicker materials. Honestly the only reason we would upgrade right now is to get some additional cutting options like the knives and such for cutting printed vinyl or sintra but that isn't something we do very often anyways. We use FlexiSign in the shop so using Enroute for us was a no brainer. The two work great together and does everything we need it to do. We have had pretty good luck with Multicam service so no complaints there. Overall, very happy with Multicam.
 
MGB_LE

MGB_LE

New Member
Bxtr said:
Hello all,

We currently have a 10 year old Multicam 1000 series 5x10 router. It is equipped with the vision registration system, no tool changer (Base model at the time).

It's been a good machine; we are just looking for that next step up in speed, ease of use, a tool changer, and any automation as well.

The current machine has had a few hiccups and the service... let's just say it barely existed. I know that Multicam has been bought out since, so I can't speak to that. We have a private tech out of Denver who used to work for Multicam, but being located in SD, it is troublesome to get people out here to work on machinery.

The Multicam has been a good machine with very little downtime. We've had to replace a spindle; we also had a stepper motor board burn out. Now nothing is wrong with the machine, we are just trying to plan for the future.

We are lucky: in our current building we have space, so two years ago we purchased a Summa F1612. We are just using this as a digital cutter; we didn't buy the router tooling. We cut vinyl and soft materials up to 3mm PVC. It works great and reduces a nice bottleneck in our workflow. We love how automated it is and the ease of use to cross train employees.

So we are just looking at a CNC to route items printed on our UV flatbed: thicker, denser items like 1/4" aluminum and 1/2" acrylic...possibly HDU Foam down the road...

We've been looking into an AXYZ Infinite 5x10 or a Biesse Rover Plast J 5x10. We were convinced the Biesse was going to be our next router but are open to any feedback.

Thanks,
Bxtr
Click to expand...
This post sparked the first serious thought about what comes next for our Colex Charpcut that we have had in place since 2015. We did a midlife software/PC update and had an independent tech come out and replace vacuum motors, linear rail bearings and such. It's been a workhorse, though time has marched on. Thanks for creating the discussion.
 
G

GaSouthpaw

Profane and profane accessories.
Not knocking Colex, because they're good cutters, but they're not really production (i.e., heavy duty) routers- no matter what attachments you put on them. My assumption (though I may be wrong) was that the OP wants a true CNC router.
 
johnnysigns

johnnysigns

New Member
I've got an AXYZ infinite 5x10 machine we're running if you've got any questions. We've got the 10.8 hp spindle, 10 tool ATC, Vision and ours was optioned to swap the spindle off the gantry and run a tangential knife. Offhand I think the vac system on the AXYZ stuff is lacking. It's a plenum based system so keep that it mind. With the pop up alignment pins in our plenum it's got dead spots that have nearly zero hold down power near the 0,0 mark. I think without the pins that wouldn't be an issue. I run the tangential knife with vision more often than I'm using the spindle and we've struggled to get alignment on cut to print objects consistently tight - meaning +/- 1mm accuracy. I'm due for a tech call honestly to get it rediagnosed and worked out. We run their bare bones support package after our warranty expired and their techs are generally very good over the phone or remotely connected. Other than parts I've fried or damaged, I've had very little part failures on this machine. 9 months after I bought this thing our shop flooded with 3ft of water and I thought the AXYZ would be a total loss. Turned out not to be the case at all. I inadvertently blew the A2MC brain after I was swapping some of the parts that I couldn't get to dry out to my satistfaction. That proved to be costly for a brand new A2MC and I had tech install that on site out of warranty. In the end it was worth it as I could retrain on the machine after the months of down time we had from the flooding so I think it was pretty positive overall. Other than that, flood remediation only cost $1200 or so for a couple motors that would not come back after our dry out period. I think that says a lot about their build quality.
 
B

Bxtr

New Member
bowtievega said:
Our very first piece of CNC equipment was an AXYZ 4008 router. Basic, no tool changer, mist system for aluminum cutting. It was a decent machine, didn't have a lot of problems with it. Not very fast but it was pretty old tech as far as routers go. Their new machines look really nice and I think are on par with everyone else. Ours ran a proprietary software but i'm not sure about the new machines. We purchased a used Multicam 5'x10' 5000 series machine maybe 10 years ago? It is a 2005 vintage but had a Multicam service tech go thru it and add a camera system, upgrade the motherboard etc. It was a demo machine for some company and was used very little and was in almost perfect shape. It has a tool changer, 11 hp spindle, mister. Thing is a beast. Cuts great, lots of power and weighs alot so not much vibration when cutting thicker materials. Honestly the only reason we would upgrade right now is to get some additional cutting options like the knives and such for cutting printed vinyl or sintra but that isn't something we do very often anyways. We use FlexiSign in the shop so using Enroute for us was a no brainer. The two work great together and does everything we need it to do. We have had pretty good luck with Multicam service so no complaints there. Overall, very happy with Multicam.
Click to expand...
Our Multicam has been great, it's more of the service end that we had troubles with. The longest we were down was roughly a week, which feels like an eternity when you realize how much goes through that machine on a daily basis.
We had a stepper board go our during Covid and it was a struggle to get a replacement part. Multicam wouldn't call us back, we had to hound them just to have them say they didn't have that part and couldn't help. We ended up getting someone local to fix it after over paying for a online used one that didn't work. Now we have a spare laying around just in case. Even our tech who was let go by the Multicam said he's still buy one. The costs of the new machines are pricey though.
 
B

Bxtr

New Member
johnnysigns said:
I've got an AXYZ infinite 5x10 machine we're running if you've got any questions. We've got the 10.8 hp spindle, 10 tool ATC, Vision and ours was optioned to swap the spindle off the gantry and run a tangential knife. Offhand I think the vac system on the AXYZ stuff is lacking. It's a plenum based system so keep that it mind. With the pop up alignment pins in our plenum it's got dead spots that have nearly zero hold down power near the 0,0 mark. I think without the pins that wouldn't be an issue. I run the tangential knife with vision more often than I'm using the spindle and we've struggled to get alignment on cut to print objects consistently tight - meaning +/- 1mm accuracy. I'm due for a tech call honestly to get it rediagnosed and worked out. We run their bare bones support package after our warranty expired and their techs are generally very good over the phone or remotely connected. Other than parts I've fried or damaged, I've had very little part failures on this machine. 9 months after I bought this thing our shop flooded with 3ft of water and I thought the AXYZ would be a total loss. Turned out not to be the case at all. I inadvertently blew the A2MC brain after I was swapping some of the parts that I couldn't get to dry out to my satistfaction. That proved to be costly for a brand new A2MC and I had tech install that on site out of warranty. In the end it was worth it as I could retrain on the machine after the months of down time we had from the flooding so I think it was pretty positive overall. Other than that, flood remediation only cost $1200 or so for a couple motors that would not come back after our dry out period. I think that says a lot about their build quality.
Click to expand...
We upgraded our vacuum motor when we bought our Multicam and we are still taping things down or putting double sided masking tape on smaller projects. The suction is great on full sheets or that cover the entire quadrants...
I'm impressed your didn't run into more problems on the machine due to flooding/moisture!
Do you pay a month fee for your support package? or is it pay as you go?
 
johnnysigns

johnnysigns

New Member
Bxtr said:
We upgraded our vacuum motor when we bought our Multicam and we are still taping things down or putting double sided masking tape on smaller projects. The suction is great on full sheets or that cover the entire quadrants...
I'm impressed your didn't run into more problems on the machine due to flooding/moisture!
Do you pay a month fee for your support package? or is it pay as you go?
Click to expand...
I don't know how or why we got so lucky on the flooding, but I'll take it. I did have the Busch Mink vac pump lock up on us as we worked through our dryout period, but some wd-40 honestly freed that up. I ran transmission fluid through it and manually spun the motor several times a day for a couple weeks before draining and flushing for the spec'd oil. I did that as automotive trans fluid is usually full of cleaning agents, just something I picked up from my father and vehicle repair. We did pull the whole motor apart and had to lightly scuff/sand all the corrosion out of there. I don't know if that pump would've given us 20yrs of use and that's now significantly less after the flood remediation? I keep an eye on the oil pretty religiously and so far it's always looked perfect. Overall, I haven't seen any loss of vacuum from the pump. I'm just not a fan of the plenum vacuum setups on these machines.

If anyone's interested we've had amazing success with tile gasket from all star CNC. It's a low tack foam that has offset holes to focus the vac draw to 8mm holes cut in the foam. I covered our bed in that for a program cutting 2x3 1/8" polycarbonate parts and only lost 3-5pcs from movement out of 500pcs per sheet yield. You cut slightly into the tile gasket so it's reusable until it's completely torn up. We cut it all off using our spoilboard milling tool after it was pretty well beat up. I think it cost me $250 shipped and it lasted about 8 months. Whatever the foam gasket is made out actually stuck to poly and paper liner on acrylic or plastic sheets so there was very little part movement and you get the added hold down from focusing the vac draw to small holes.

We do an annual plan with AXZY for the support. It's nominally $600 for the year and gets us access to their phone support system. Given the flood remediation and the parts I replaced before and after frying the A2MC computer we've been really fortunate that we've had no additional repairs for the machine.
 
johnnysigns

johnnysigns

New Member
Here's a link to the tilegasket. They offer 3 thicknesses from 1/32-1/8" thick. I was advised by their sales staff to run the thinner version for acrylic and plastic we're cutting. I did use it for all manner of stuff we cut in the end - meaning we cut plenty of 3/4" plywood, 1" PVC and loads of 1/8", 3/16" and 1/4" acrylic sheets.

TG CR 03 24 - All Star CNC Products Inc

store.allstarcnc.com store.allstarcnc.com
 
B

Bxtr

New Member
johnnysigns said:
Here's a link to the tilegasket. They offer 3 thicknesses from 1/32-1/8" thick. I was advised by their sales staff to run the thinner version for acrylic and plastic we're cutting. I did use it for all manner of stuff we cut in the end - meaning we cut plenty of 3/4" plywood, 1" PVC and loads of 1/8", 3/16" and 1/4" acrylic sheets.

TG CR 03 24 - All Star CNC Products Inc

store.allstarcnc.com store.allstarcnc.com
Click to expand...
Thanks, I'll definitely look into this! Looks like something very handy.
 
B

Bxtr

New Member
Bxtr said:
Hello all,

We currently have a 10 year old Multicam 1000 series 5x10 router. It is equipped with the vision registration system, no tool changer (Base model at the time).

It's been a good machine; we are just looking for that next step up in speed, ease of use, a tool changer, and any automation as well.

The current machine has had a few hiccups and the service... let's just say it barely existed. I know that Multicam has been bought out since, so I can't speak to that. We have a private tech out of Denver who used to work for Multicam, but being located in SD, it is troublesome to get people out here to work on machinery.

The Multicam has been a good machine with very little downtime. We've had to replace a spindle; we also had a stepper motor board burn out. Now nothing is wrong with the machine, we are just trying to plan for the future.

We are lucky: in our current building we have space, so two years ago we purchased a Summa F1612. We are just using this as a digital cutter; we didn't buy the router tooling. We cut vinyl and soft materials up to 3mm PVC. It works great and reduces a nice bottleneck in our workflow. We love how automated it is and the ease of use to cross train employees.

So we are just looking at a CNC to route items printed on our UV flatbed: thicker, denser items like 1/4" aluminum and 1/2" acrylic...possibly HDU Foam down the road...

We've been looking into an AXYZ Infinite 5x10 or a Biesse Rover Plast J 5x10. We were convinced the Biesse was going to be our next router but are open to any feedback.

Thanks,
Bxtr
Click to expand...
So I just recently looked into ShopSabre... I was very pleased to find a company within 4 hours of our shop. Does anyone have any experience with them at all? Good or Bad?
Thanks for all the responces, all have been very helpful!
 
MikePro

MikePro

New Member
my multicam 3000's have been running beautifully for 20years. only had a tech onsite twice, which could have been avoided if I had gotten up to speed with my DIY ability to diagnose/repair, but that was nearly 10years ago. I have now replaced a few stepper controllers and a set of four bearing cars myself since.

MultiCam is amazing with support, even if to talk you through your issues and suggestions for service they know you have the ability to do in-house. Scheduling a tech is always untimely and expensive, avoid if possible but you'll get that with any brand. If you maintain, if not OVERmaintain, these machines with lube&cleaning then I would bet money anyday that you'll never have an issue.

I've got my eye on a new 5000 series that ran beautifully at last year's ISA show, but we instead decided to buy a new boomtruck and have a flatbed printer on the horizon for 2024 ....so I'll proly have to wait until after Trump takes office in 2025 for the next CNCupgrade :)
 
Last edited:
JBurton

JBurton

Signtologist
Bxtr said:
Does anyone have any experience with them at all? Good or Bad?
Click to expand...
I've had 3 major issues, and they've helped resolve all of them over the phone. This last time I talked to 4 different techs, all seemed knowledgeable, but every time I called back the last fellow I talked to would be on another call. Free lifetime tech support, going on year 3 now. (It also helps that I know these machines thoroughly, but they give very clear instructions made for the layman.)
Issues were:
1 bearing failed, not enough grease, user error
2 code on the servo table was miskeyed at the factory, found it cutting a large arc that had a straight 1" section in it, manufacturer error
3 machine lost square, found an error in the code that never used the second limit switch, manufacturer error
To be fair, my machine was built 6 months after covid lockdowns started.
I'd swing by shopsabre if I were that close, I very much considered flying out to check them out, but ya know, covid.
johnnysigns said:
Here's a link to the tilegasket. They offer 3 thicknesses from 1/32-1/8" thick. I was advised by their sales staff to run the thinner version for acrylic and plastic we're cutting. I did use it for all manner of stuff we cut in the end - meaning we cut plenty of 3/4" plywood, 1" PVC and loads of 1/8", 3/16" and 1/4" acrylic sheets.

TG CR 03 24 - All Star CNC Products Inc

store.allstarcnc.com store.allstarcnc.com
Click to expand...
I finally got around to getting something like this that someone on the forum recommended, but it's a 5x10 roll with a porous surface rather than holes. It's worked great for a whole day, can't attest to longevity, but the added friction really makes the horizontal hold down phenomenal. Not sure how much it does to counteract the upcut forces on a bit. It's quite a bit cheaper for a 5x10 roll too.
blackboxvac.com

Black Box Grip-Lock Mat - Black Box Vacuum

Dimensions: 5' x 10' x 2mm
blackboxvac.com blackboxvac.com
 
johnnysigns

johnnysigns

New Member
GaSouthpaw said:
+1 on this. Stuff works so much better than the regular weather stripping that people usually use to replace worn out gaskets- mainly because they make it specifically for these machines.
Click to expand...
Yeah, they're gasketing stuff is good stuff. I swapped all my OEM AXYZ gaskets to All Star's stuff. I have found their sales staff is excellent at helping make decisions on what to order. They still follow up on us pretty regularly to see what issues we're having or how their product is performing.
 
johnnysigns

johnnysigns

New Member
JBurton said:
I finally got around to getting something like this that someone on the forum recommended, but it's a 5x10 roll with a porous surface rather than holes. It's worked great for a whole day, can't attest to longevity, but the added friction really makes the horizontal hold down phenomenal. Not sure how much it does to counteract the upcut forces on a bit. It's quite a bit cheaper for a 5x10 roll too.
blackboxvac.com

Black Box Grip-Lock Mat - Black Box Vacuum

Dimensions: 5' x 10' x 2mm
blackboxvac.com blackboxvac.com
Click to expand...
That looks like promising stuff too. I know what I like about the tile gaskets specifically is their holes. The vacuum is focused to enter through those holes so you can get incredible hold down on a part even if you've only got a couple of holes underneath. They've also cut the new stuff with a staggered array of holes. The old stuff was just in a grid formation so if your parts fell on a line of holes you'd lose more vac power than the new staggered array. I know they talked about marking larger sheets or rolls, but I don't know where that stand now. I was worried about how it would mill off the table, but I didn't have any issues with a 1.5"D spoil board tool taking it right off.
 
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