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Not sure if this is the correct category.................................................................................

Gino

Premium Subscriber
I wrote something about this last week.

Had a call from a company last week about installing a flush-mount on a wall in a nearby town. I said that I knew the area somewhat and the size they made the sign sounded too big for codes. He said well, we just the middleman. A company out in the midwest made the sign, shipped it to them and the customer wants a local signshop to instal it. That's where we come in. They already shipped the sign to the customer and he's waiting for my cal to make arrangements. I called the codes office and turns out they gave me the wrong name. So, I hadda do some investigative work and finally found the municipality. They don't have a codes person or department, so I hadda call someone else. Finally a guy calls me back and says, the location will only allow for a 12 sf sign. The sign they made was 36sf. I called the guy who contacted me and turns out he was on vacation. Why they were ducking my calls. He calls me this morning and asked if it's up, since my message was vague. I said, nope...... and it ain't going up. Told him my findings and he asked if there's anything they can do, like a variance or some other coding like commercial or semi commercial or anything. Nope. The guy already checked every possibility and nada, no can do. Now, the township will be on the lookout for that location and if it goes up without a permit, heads will roll, so I told him I ain't getting involved.

Earlier I had asked, who's to blame ?? This is why it pays to do things the right way.

Why would a customer be the blame, if he's not in the profession ?? There are two other sign shops involved and no one asked any questions, just push it through and get paid.
 

JBurton

Signtologist
Why would a customer be the blame, if he's not in the profession ?
Ignorance. There are certain things as a business owner that you need to be researching while putting together/executing a business plan.
We just put up a sign for a kayak joint. While pulling permits the city notified us it wasn't zoned for retail sales. IDGAF, can I still get my permit? They relent, but only after talking with the customer, who had to move his business in with 30 days notice, and he assured them he was looking for a retail location and this was only temporary (He isn't).
So aside from the sign permit issue, who is at fault for him renting a location that isn't zoned for retail? The business owner, the property manager, or perhaps a realtor who helped him locate a new storefront?
But, back to your case, he contacted a legit sign company, who is trying to find an installer for this sign, right? As in, not for the customer to deal with direct? In that case, it's on them, this isn't their first rodeo.
If they were asked to build by the customer, he checked a box saying 'I'm responsible for installation and local permitting', then he pestered them to help find an installer, well it's all on him jumping the gun/taking on too much responsibility that he was ignorant of what all it entailed.
 

petepaz

New Member
i did a big sign job for a car dealership last year and they were adamite about not needing permits. basically they didn't want to wait and go through all the red tape so i drew up a contract that had all kinds of wording making them liable for any fines and or costs if we had to take it down and reinstall which they signed. not sure how well that would hold up in court but my boss was ok with it so we got it installed. fortunately we haven't had any issues so far. not sure the customers really understand how this process works or they just feel they don't have to follow the rules.
 

Moze

Active Member
It's up to the original sign company selling the job to do the code research, determine what's allowed and provide signage based on those allowances. A good sign company will take it a step further and send the proposed drawings to the municipality to confirm they'll be approved prior to manufacturing anything.

It's a pretty common occurrence with some sign companies to completely skip checking the sign ordinance. They receive renderings from the customer, fabricate the signs and then can't install them. It happens a LOT. And then they scramble and ask for a variance, etc. A variance is for individuals that can prove a hardship, not for individuals that don't do their due diligence.
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
After re-reading the beginning, I think it's Mr Middleman who called you...

Company A?

Still company A?

Company B?

Sounds like this is all on company A, which sounds like a local print shop who thought they'd cash in on a bigger job.


I totally agree.
What he told me was he contracted a company out west (company B) to make the sign. He got it and then forwarded it to the customer. I got the impression, my contact (company A) just called every wholesaler he could find and got it sent there. So, its bought and paid for, just needs a sucker not to ask questions and just put it up. THEN, get a call about not having a permit for doing so and installing an illegal sign.

Another fun fact is, all the dates are from june of 2023. How long has this sign been sitting in this guys building ?? Lotsa red flags, but still a good reason to not dick around with obtaining permits. Someone in the end is gonna get inched, since I set it in motion.
 

Notarealsignguy

Arial - it's almost helvetica
It's the middleman's fault he called a sign company that went around checking codes
It's equally the customer's fault if not more. Everyone knows that codes are different everywhere. I could order a metal building from Illinois for a whole lot less than one down in Florida and they will ship it to me no questions asked. It's on me to make sure what I am buying will fly, which it wont, or hire a turn key contractor that works in Florida. If a customer is too stupid to figure this stuff out then they should have got the whole package from a local shop. For all anyone knows, they may have been told it doesn't meet code and they said do it anyway. How many times have we all heard or done that ourselves? I tell people who order window perf to check local ordinances because it's not allowed in many areas but they don't care so neither do I.
 

DL Signs

Never go against the family
It's insane how often it gets all the way to trying to find an installer for a sign that doesn't meet local code.

First, the company it's for should have been responsible to make sure what they want can be legally done before doing anything. From zoning, to parking, licenses, permits of all sorts, including signage, it's all a part of opening or running a business. When they reach out to a company for signage, it falls on the sign company to make sure what the customer wants is legal to do. If it makes it all the way to locating an installer, the correct thing for them to do is make sure everyone else followed through. We would refuse. Not the fault of the company who made the sign, not their responsibility. Gino did the only right thing by checking (hope he billed for his time).
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
It's insane how often it gets all the way to trying to find an installer for a sign that doesn't meet local code.

First, the company it's for should have been responsible to make sure what they want can be legally done before doing anything. From zoning, to parking, licenses, permits of all sorts, including signage, it's all a part of opening or running a business. When they reach out to a company for signage, it falls on the sign company to make sure what the customer wants is legal to do. If it makes it all the way to locating an installer, the correct thing for them to do is make sure everyone else followed through. We would refuse. Not the fault of the company who made the sign, not their responsibility. Gino did the only right thing by checking (hope he billed for his time).

Nah, I told him it was free time and hope he learned a lesson. Actually, I got paid beyond what I could've charged, just telling him all the things he did wrong...... kinda like around this place. :toasting:
 

Texas_Signmaker

Very Active Signmaker
Tex would have done thrown 4 tapcons in it, ran some romex through the wall, wire taped it together and collected the check. Sheesh Gino
We all know two is standard .. in case one fails. 4 is just wasteful. Romex? No, tell them there's no box up there and to call an electrician... Jeez do I have to teach you all the tricks?
 

GAC05

Quit buggin' me
Good thread Gino, now, you might want to clean your keyboard - the period key seems a little 'sticky'
 
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