off gassing large wraps!

[rambo555]

We've come up with a pretty simple way to off gas long rolls without laying them out and taking up valueble table space. Using two stacked milk crates we put a small fan in the bottom one and put the roll upright fanning it out as much as the width of the milk crate will allow so that all layers have a gap for air to pass through. Turn the fan on and voila, your off gassing a full roll in 2 square feet of space.

Any chance you might be able to provide a picture of this in action? It sounds like a great idea, but I just can't picture how it works. I'm havign a "simple minded" day.

 

[mac_man_luke]

would love to hear the justification for the difference.

I know when we print photo paper it dries far slower than vinyl - basically untouchable for 24hours without marking it

vinyl is dry as it comes out the machine

versaart with eco sol max

 

[saktrnch]

would love to hear the justification for the difference.

For some reason, it takes the ink longer to dry on the photo paper I'm using. If I stack, roll, or frame behind glass pictures in the first 24 hours they stick.


If I laminate vinyl I don't (at least haven't yet) have any problems.

 

[MachServTech]

This is one of the best benifits to the HP Latex machine, no out gassing is needed ever so you can go install instantly.

Although true, not the point of this post.

IMHO outgassing is more important the more solvent you put into the media....some heaver solvents can tatoo the vehicle paint underneath if the wrap is not properly outgassed.

 

[bob]

'Outgas' is merely a way to say 'dry' with two syllables.

Volatile solvents, such as those in any sort of solvent printer inks, dry by evaporation.

Once it's dry, it's dry. Different media is affected differently and takes whatever it takes to dry. Before a print is completely dry the elasticity of the media can be affected. Once its dry, the elasticity of the media should be exactly what it was before printing.

Elasticity notwithstanding, if a print is dry to the fingertip glide test, it's dry enough to use.

If I have to wait any significant time for a print to dry I just hang it on the wall with a few push pins. This requires absolutely no floor space.

If I ever had a significant number of prints with which to deal I'd cut a bunch of 1x2 stringers, pin the top of each print to a stringer, and hang the stringers on some sort of rack or clothesline or whatever. If the prints wanted to curl in some annoying way, I'd pin a stringer to the bottom as well just to provide a bit of weight.

 

[MachServTech]

Elasticity notwithstanding, if a print is dry to the fingertip glide test, it's dry enough to use.

I have to respectfully disagree. I have run into several instances where "dry to the touch" is not completely outgassed and has caused significant finishing problems.

 

[johnnysigns]

I've seen some haziness in prints from what I was told was not proper outgassing, but I've definitely hung vinyl that was gummy and bear to install from going straight to laminate.

 

[Flame]

Once its dry, the elasticity of the media should be exactly what it was before printing.

That I can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, is false. I can print a photo on 651, for example, and apply it a week later. That printed media will be far more pliable than it was before being printed.

Now, how that breaks down/works chemically... I don't know. But it's a fact.

Flame I've gone from the printer to the laminator inthe past, I've never had an issue yet but If I have time I'd rather to what everyone says is the rigth thing and let them off gas. The idea behind it seems to make sense, I'd rather take the tiem if I have and ensure that I'm not redoing something down the road. With everyone and thier dog doing wraps now a days the profit margine is low and redo are not an option.

You know honestly, if in doubt, do it. Better safe than sorry... so while I have been having good luck, it's not a bad idea to let em sit just to be sure.

 

[bob]

That I can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, is false. I can print a photo on 651, for example, and apply it a week later. That printed media will be far more pliable than it was before being printed.

Now, how that breaks down/works chemically... I don't know. But it's a fact...

You only suspect it, you don't know it.

The plural of anecdote is not data. Come up with some before and after data done with proper instrumentation in a double blind mode and you might have something. Without that all you have are stories to be told around the campfire.

 

[Flame]

You only suspect it, you don't know it.

The plural of anecdote is not data. Come up with some before and after data done with proper instrumentation in a double blind mode and you might have something. Without that all you have are stories to be told around the campfire.

lol. Bob, you crack me up. You really don't have a clue about anything sign related.

 

[Jester1167]

Anyone who goes straight from the printer to the laminator is crazy and also irresponsible for encouraging it in a public forum.

All manufactures specify a minimum of 24hrs curing time before laminating. Why would they do that if it wasn’t true? If I was a manufacture and I had a product that didn’t require time, space, and/or equipment to cure, I would be the first to advertise it. Oh, wait, that’s why they’re spending resources on developing better UV and latex inks.

As an installer I can tell you it sucks to install solvent soaked vinyl. It’s overly aggressive, stretchy and the air egress characteristics are diminished. The edges curl under after the liner is removed and adds additional time and frustration to an install.

For those that don’t believe, cut open an extra ink cartridge and put a couple of drops on your favorite vinyl and see what happens. The vinyl expands so much it creates a wrinkle. The example is extreme but it shows you what the solvents are doing to the vinyl.

My 2 cents

 

[cdiesel]

Shane has some very good reasons to listen to the manufacturers. I'll try to post some pictures of what we use to dry our prints tomorrow. It's a little more involved than what most refer to, but it works great.

A couple years ago, one of the mags (Sign Builder?) showed pictures of some Disney vans that were wrapped. After removal, the image had transferred to the paint. It was determined this was due to inadequate dry time on the prints.

I can speak from personal experience that outgassing/drying direclty affects how the vinyl and image withstand the elements, namely sunlight. We had one project a couple years ago that required us to reprint a fender during installation. It was immediately laminated and installed. Two years later, this vehicle was brought back to us after being in an accident. That same fender had become "sunburnt", especially at the top where it turns horizontal. The hood, which is obviously adjacent to the fender and horizontal was perfect. It was just the fender that had issues. I attribute this directly to the fact it was not allowed to dry before installation.

 

[ProWraps]

go flood coat some 180c with black, lam it right away and watch it curl up like a snake when you go to install it.

if you dont know that, then you havent installed enough wraps. like jester said, it makes a huge difference in the install. it also makes a difference in how the lam adheres to the media.

as far as the comment about my buckets being worthless... they do have holes drilled in the bottom, and the sides. 4 3" holes bottom, 4 3" holes sides. its just not in the pics i posted as i did it after.

they work extremely well and are much better than handling and stacking prints horizontally. the amount of wraps we do, and the volume we produce would make hanging them on walls, or stacking them absolutely impossible, not to mention a horrible way to expose your prints to excess dust and possible damage. the bucket method is the only way that would work for us.

 

[Flame]

Anyone who goes straight from the printer to the laminator is crazy and also irresponsible for encouraging it in a public forum.

haha. funny. I actually said better safe than sorry, but it's worked fine for me.

Why would they do that if it wasn’t true?

They also claim 3M media is only compatible with 3M laminate, and 3rd party inks will void your warranty and a lot of you can't install below 45 degrees.....

lol


Sorry for butting in, feel free to let them sit overnight because I do agree in most circumstances it really is better safe than sorry.

 

[National Sign Co. - Print]

I would agree with the out gassing issues on Low end solvent printers. They have no way to dry and cure prints on the printer other then sitting and curing. They are also not made for high volume runs either.....

It is all about the machines you use and what the production needs to both you and your clients. We use HP/Scitex xl 1500's for our solvent production( see attached) The top hood has over 90 IR dryers in it (100 amps worth of drying power). Wraps are ready to laminate right from the printer fully cured never an issue. This is what these machines are designed. We cannot wait 24 hours to laminate or even 1 hour in certain situations.

These are all 300 foot fully printed rolls right from print right to a laminator. 1000's of square feet a week....

My 2 cents from working experience....

 

[Jester1167]

They also claim 3M media is only

compatible with 3M laminate

I believe this is for warranty purposes.

The point I made was that if curing wasn't important, none of the manufactures would say it was. Instead, all of them say it when there no other benefit then avoiding excess warranty issues.

3rd party inks will void your warranty

Convert your brand new diesel into a used vegetable oil powered vehicle and see if your warrantee is voided.

a lot of you can't install below 45 degrees

Lots of people on this board have installed vinyl in all types of situations and you’re not the only installer here that has broken all the rules. I just choose to break them when there are no other options available.

 

[Sticky Signs]

First off, are you using a hot or cold laminator?

I have a cold laminator and I'm with Flame. I never let stuff sit and out gas. Waist of time in my opinion plus your asking for trouble - IE, debris, tipping the roll over and causing damage, etc, etc, etc.
In my shop it goes right form the printer to the laminator.
I may consider off gassing if I was using a hot laminator as the heat can actually boil any ink that isn't dry and cause silvering.

 

[Jim Doggett]

love ya flame, but i want to make sure that this advice is not considered by anyone to be good advice.

we use modified home depot buckets that we put our rolls in. MINIMUM of 24 hours outgassing. typically 48 or more though.

i would not recommend laying prints out to outgas. they are very voulnerable to damage and particulate mater that will be a nightmare to get all off before laming.

Great advice, from a guy who's as Pro as the name suggests!

Standing up is safer and vastly more space-saving. And if you can build a box with a simple fan system, you can cut 2 days down to a few hours. Here's an example, which I think bigger/busier shops could build themselves and get back huge time-savings:

http://www.signmaking-superstore.de...ostBox-XL--Opened--1-Engine-Without-Door.html

My $0.02,

Jim