Off Gassing - recommendations

[Kentucky Wraps]

A lot of wrap guys in here are using eco-sol myself included. You're not really going to have a problem with it when mounting to flat surfaces because you aren't picking it up and repositioning it etc.
I don't out gas most of my flat substrate applications either.

 

[Techman]

QUOTE]So that either makes your claim ignorant due to lack of variable experience or dishonest[/QUOTE]

Neither,..

I have plenty of experience. As do many others. For each person that says there is a difference there is an equal number who say there is not.
I wrapped things before wrapping became famous. Before air release vinyl came long. Your point about experience is moot. Adding a tone of dishonesty merely make your point a personal attack. So that one is invalid as well. As far as a manufacturers recommendations go,, well.. We all know how far to take that load.

Now back to the point. Why not do like others have done in the past. Years ago we had a meet and greet and went on to test various concoctions of home made weasel **** verses a professional juice. We found out so enlightening info. Mainly that some of those wonder juices were nothing but a waste of time. At the next wrappers meet and greet conduct a test. Use several materials and inks samples and find out for one's self what really happens instead of shouting out an opinion on a forum.

Anyway its back to the shop. I have work screaming to get done.

 

[Kentucky Wraps]

*sighhh
I must argue...not because it's my hobby...but I may not sleep tonight if I don't.
Ok...perhaps I like a "good argument".
Some of us are speaking of the Aggressiveness of the adhesive because someone was asking about it and your advise to them is...it's a myth.
I know this is going to irk some as going overboard...or they'll be jealous I wasted so much time doing this, but I got 2 vehicle done already today
and my wife hates arguing...so here goes.


Quote} outgassing is a myth
•(despite others like myself having evidence to the contrary?

Quote} I feel almost all outgas problems are urban legend and myth
•(again, despite others disagreeing with you including manufacturers?

Quote} Has any one actually observed a pocket of vapor build up under a lam? Has any one ever observed a pickle skin? No one has.
•(Actually YES...I've observed it. It's called silvering and I'm also not alone in this empirical observation.)

Quote} So did the temp of the air have more of an effect than applying a lam to a print?
•(the increased adhesive aggression we are speaking of is not temperature related.

Quote} I wrapped things....Before air release vinyl came long
•(that was a different type of material then and not what we are using now.

Quote} Your point about experience is moot.
There are only 3 options here.
1. You haven't experienced it and we have.
2. You have experienced it but are denying it. I don't believe you have a reason to do that, which I stated..so it's NOT a personal attack or name calling...it's merely one of the few options I said could be to the argument.
3. All of us who currently wrap many vehicles for a living that make the claim of having more aggressive adhesion when it's not out gassed are delusional or lying about our experiences.
•(if you haven't experienced the problem...and others have...logically, you lack the experience we have had, since you admittedly never experienced it.

I'm obviously not going with option 3 and have no motive to nor anything to gain from it. In fact I'm considering latex for the VERY reason we are discussing!
My conclusion is that you may have in the past worked with wrapping but have not worked with it in the same capacity as those of us who have had the issue.

•••Therefore telling that person it's a myth presumptuously accuses myself and others as being ignorant of what you "KNOW" to be true in spite of our experience to the contrary.

*bracing myself for the backlash of this post.

 

[neil_se]

We also experienced problems over the years from not sufficiently degassing wraps and perforated film. Issues included difficulty in repositioning film, adhesion in deep recesses, and curling from cut edges. We would aim to degas perf and wraps for at least 3 days, and 12 hours for flat signs (only as a precaution though, never really experienced any problems with these).

No such concerns now that we have a HP latex though

 

[gabagoo]

Silvering is not caused by outgassing.....usually for me it is cheaper lam that generally silvers plus colder winter shop temps

 

[zymogenesyst]

I really don't see how anyone can say out gassing isn't real or important. If out gassing was a myth there wouldn't be half the people in this thread saying its important to do.

If you are saying or thinking its a myth watch this video, then go do the same print test

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-sV8qKeQrA&sns=em
(WARNING: 3M haters beware, this comes right from 3M)

 

[bob]

I really don't see how anyone can say out gassing isn't real or important. If out gassing was a myth there wouldn't be half the people in this thread saying its important to do...

Please explain how belief in X constitutes evidence of the existence of X. For extra credit, why do you discount the other half of the folk that believe it is a myth?

Regardless, since solvent ink dries via rapid evaporation and vinyl is gas permeable the curious notion of 'outgassing', vis-a-vis volatile fractions boiling off a print, doesn't last very long and is not as big a deal as some people make it out to be.

But if by 'outgassing' you mean the curing time for a print with a lot of ink on it to leave the annoying rubbery state and start to behave like unprinted vinyl, then there's outgassing. It depends very much on what you mean when you use the word.

By the bye, it's 'If out gassing were a myth' not 'was'. Thus endeth today's grammar lesson.

 

[Kentucky Wraps]

Please explain how belief in X constitutes evidence of the existence of X. For extra credit, why do you discount the other half of the folk that believe it is a myth?

Regardless, since solvent ink dries via rapid evaporation and vinyl is gas permeable the curious notion of 'outgassing', vis-a-vis volatile fractions boiling off a print, doesn't last very long and is not as big a deal as some people make it out to be.

But if by 'outgassing' you mean the curing time for a print with a lot of ink on it to leave the annoying rubbery state and start to behave like unprinted vinyl, then there's outgassing. It depends very much on what you mean when you use the word.

By the bye, it's 'If out gassing were a myth' not 'was'. Thus endeth today's grammar lesson.

Today's lesson in sound argumentation:

Your premise: I've not experienced it.
Your conclusion: Therefor it does not happen.

Our premise: I've experienced it. Above is a video demonstrating someone else experiencing it.
Our conclusion: Out gassing reduces the aggressiveness of the adhesive.

Trying to prove something doesn't happen by using the evidence of not having had observed it is weaker than
Trying to prove something does happen by using evidence of observation is a sound argument.

I understand trying to disprove the existence of something is more difficult than to prove the existence of something.
•That being said, "half" the active wrappers here, a video demonstration and all manufacturers (who benefit nothing by claiming so) "believe" it is a real process.

•The other "half" of you in this thread don't "believe" it is a real process because you can't make sense of it and have not experienced it.

I'll leave it at that.

 

[bob]

Today's lesson in sound argumentation:

Your premise: I've not experienced it.
Your conclusion: Therefor it does not happen.

Our premise: I've experienced it. Above is a video demonstrating someone else experiencing it.
Our conclusion: Out gassing reduces the aggressiveness of the adhesive.

Trying to prove something doesn't happen by using the evidence of not having had observed it is weaker than
Trying to prove something does happen by using evidence of observation is a sound argument.

I understand trying to disprove the existence of something is more difficult than to prove the existence of something.
•That being said, "half" the active wrappers here, a video demonstration and all manufacturers (who benefit nothing by claiming so) "believe" it is a real process.

•The other "half" of you in this thread don't "believe" it is a real process because you can't make sense of it and have not experienced it.

I'll leave it at that.

Really?

In order to hypothesize the existence of a something its mechanism must be demonstrated. Otherwise all you have is mindless belief.

Do not confuse confirming** that something does not exist with dis-proving an hypothesis that it does exist. Two very different propositions.

**Hypotheses are incapable of proof. They may only be confirmed or dis-proven. Never proven.

Your daily lesson on scientific method and confirmation theory.

 

[zymogenesyst]

Bob did you watch the video and do the same print test?

 

[Kentucky Wraps]

Really?

In order to hypothesize the existence of a something its mechanism must be demonstrated. Otherwise all you have is mindless belief.

Do not confuse confirming** that something does not exist with dis-proving an hypothesis that it does exist. Two very different propositions.

**Hypotheses are incapable of proof. They may only be confirmed or dis-proven. Never proven.

Your daily lesson on scientific method and confirmation theory.

This is fun. Engaging in something other than politics anyway. Regardless of who I believe is right or wrong, this type of discourse applies to many arenas in life and unfortunately
most people don't know why or how they came to their beliefs. As long as it doesn't become a personal attack and we stick to dismantling or addressing the argument and not the
arguer, it can be a productive process.

•Boiled down version...
We observe the problem & attribute it to lack of "out gassing" because that is the consistent factor among the variables when we experience it. (demonstrated on the video)
You discredit such a conclusion because you "believe" out gassing to be myth. You base this belief on an apparent false understanding of how solvents, laminates, vinyl, & adhesives "should" behave under such circumstances.

•Long version
What accepted scientific principles are being violated by our "hypothesis"? Have you stated any, other than how you personally "believe" the solvent "should" affect the adhesive.
Since ALL scientific principles lie on the presumption that the future will be like the observable past using the high level of predictability based on observations of past and current events. I'm well versed in scientific method.
•You've hypothesized that the solvent does not affect the adhesive. Your support for that idea is that you don't observe anomalies between the lamination and the ink.
•You reason that such anomalies should manifest if there are any reactions significant enough to compromise the adhesive which is on the back side of the vinyl.
Not to mention you've not accounted for how the adhesive is more aggressive when not "out gassed". You've speculated it may be due to high temperatures, but we've already stated that is not the case.

Our conclusions are based on observation. I don't think that is considered "mindless belief". Our reasons don't have to satisfy your understanding in order to be correct or plausible.
The fact is that our (active wrappers, video, vinyl manufacturers) conclusions don't agree with your understanding of how it "should" behave.
You've only listed notions that you feel the material reactions should follow if out gassing were real.
Those "straw man" premises are what you are using to support your conclusion. Those aren't scientific principles.