Oraguard 210 = UV burn

[Z SIGNS]

Oh brother... not every sign you put out there needs to be cast vinyl. A product should last as long as the manufacturer says it will - that's the issue. I have signs made with cast vinyl out there that look great after 6 years... and those customers willingly paid for the premium materials. I have other signs out there that are turning brown after 4 or 5 years... and you know what? That's what their budget allowed. It's not about me being cheap, its about me selling the product my clients ask for. get off your high horse.

I'm not on a high horse by any means.
Everybody has a different business model.

My signs are not sold on price they are sold on quality.
If cheap signs and prices is all you have to offer you are in trouble.
If they want cheap low budget signs that I can't make any money off of I refer them to someone else and let the bottom feeders fight for that kind of work.

 

[BIG EASY DOES IT]

Well I guess you could call me old school because using anything less than the best product available to offer my customers I call "cheap"

Galvanized is a longer term material then wood for a post. If the customer asks for wood post, I'm going to use a wood post. Using CAST vinyl on a 6mo promotional item is overkill and a waste of profits.

But i'm not going to tell them its a galvinized post when I know it's a wood post.

 

[Z SIGNS]

Galvanized is a longer term material then wood for a post. If the customer asks for wood post, I'm going to use a wood post. Using CAST vinyl on a 6mo promotional item is overkill and a waste of profits.

But i'm not going to tell them its a galvinized post when I know it's a wood post.

Well like I said everybody is different.

I guess you shouldn't really take any advice from me because the people I have chosen to work for don't tell me how to make their signs.
The people I work for trust me to give them the best.

If you let your customers tell you what to do then you are reducing yourself to just an order taker.

But back to the original post

Yes you will have these kind of problems with calendered vinyl products.Their life expectancy claims mean nothing.
In the world of vinyl films the term "quality calendered" is an oxymoron.

 

[Baz]

You should instruct your client on what's best for their needs.
Saving them money is also a noble gesture.

No need to use cast vinyl for regular flat signs that need a life of 4-7 years.

Using cast for everything just shows you don't research your choice of materials very well.
You are shooting yourself in the foot with that mentality.

 

[petesign]

Edited. I told myself I wasnt going to get in this stupid back and forth.. and im not. It's yalls business how you do business

 

[petesign]

All that said, you should be able to tell your client that Oracal 210 will last 3-5 years in most applications. I wouldn't put it on a car, and I cant think of any horizontal applications where it would be outside all the time. Vertical sun facing signs have held up at least that long here. After that, its exceeded its life and if you explained it and the alternatives they'll usually buy another. Id check humidity in your shop.

 

[GAC05]

We've had 210 (on top of IJ35) brown out in what seemed like too short of an exposure time.
We keep it pretty simple for our customers:
Need short term promo graphics (hold up for a year to 18 months)? - intermediate material
Want it to last as long as possible? - cast lam and base.
We use 210 on some of our throw away POS for handling protection or to make it easier to install.

wayne k
guam usa

 

[Bigdawg]

We use lots and lots of 210 (usually with 3651). In Florida. In hot sun. Not had a problem with it not lasting up to manufacturer specs - and that's really all I can ask from my vendors. Make your material do what you say it will do. Having said all that - I have signs that were going to be short-term, but 8 years later they are still there. Minor shrinkage, but no burn. I personally think the Oracal 210 has helped us save our customers' money while still giving them a good product. Our shop is pretty much Oracal base for most vinyl whether cast or calendared.

 

[Pixels Are Bad Mmmkay?]

Why would a dry or wet install have any effect on this? I don't see the connection.

You would understand why I asked, had you actually read through this thread.

 

[TXFB.INS]

well now, this thread has escalated quickly.



Back to the OP, We have talked to Tim with Orafol and the initial thought is outgassing. It seems that if you use the printer profiles; in this case they are Roland profiles, you have to wait longer than 24 hrs since these profiles lay more ink than the profiles from Orafol.

Pictures of the signs have been sent to Orafol and we are waiting for them to analyze them

as we get more feedback we will pass it along

 

[Gino]

Wow-wee................

So, if you'd re-paint a Ford with a Chevy color, it won't dry or react the same ??

I'm an OraCal follower, but that sounds really dumb to me.

 

[Snydo]

Wow-wee................

So, if you'd re-paint a Ford with a Chevy color, it won't dry or react the same ??

I'm an OraCal follower, but that sounds really dumb to me.

No, but if you spray twice as much paint it's going to take longer to dry.

I would also bet that Roland makes way more money on ink sales than they do on printer sales.

OraCal profiles are the best out there, I use them for all brands and medias...the 3641 or 3951 will look great on pretty much anything you throw at them.

 

[GAC05]

No, but if you spray twice as much paint it's going to take longer to dry.

I would also bet that Roland makes way more money on ink sales than they do on printer sales.

OraCal profiles are the best out there, I use them for all brands and medias...the 3641 or 3951 will look great on pretty much anything you throw at them.

(thread jack)

When you say all medias - have you tried them on 3M180c and or IJ35c?
I have a VJ1624x (Flexi 12 RIP) and have not found my go-to profiles for it yet.
Didn't get the Spectrovue option so I can't roll my own just yet - but if these work I can use the $1000.00 for something else.....

thanks
wayne k
guam usa

(/thread jack)

 

[Snydo]

(thread jack)

When you say all medias - have you tried them on 3M180c and or IJ35c?
I have a VJ1624x (Flexi 12 RIP) and have not found my go-to profiles for it yet.
Didn't get the Spectrovue option so I can't roll my own just yet - but if these work I can use the $1000.00 for something else.....

thanks
wayne k
guam usa

(/thread jack)

All I can say is try them Wayne, I use the 3641 profile daily on a cast hi-tac 3m product and the print quality and color consistency is superb(wish I could say that for the vinyl).

I have ran that profile almost exclusively for the last 12 or so years on Mimaki JV3s, HP latex, and now on Surecolor 30670's with great output on all of them.

 

[GAC05]

All I can say is try them Wayne, I use the 3641 profile daily on a cast hi-tac 3m product and the print quality and color consistency is superb(wish I could say that for the vinyl).

I have ran that profile almost exclusively for the last 12 or so years on Mimaki JV3s, HP latex, and now on Surecolor 30670's with great output on all of them.

Yeah,
I did pretty much the same with 2 profiles from Xerox for their rebranded Mutoh 1304 - they worked on most everything I ran except for banners.
I've already downloaded the 2 you noted and will give them a shot tonight.
Thanks

wayne k
guam usa

 

[customcreations]

When I had problems a few years ago with extreme shrinkage of 3651 I got a great answer from a Orcal rep at the SGIA show. He said it was because I live in the south. Never ordered any more Orcal print products again!!

 

[TXFB.INS]

Heard back from Tim with Orafol.....

Good afternoon,
Thank you for the photos and your printing information. I have seen this before; we call it solvent migration. It comes from the solvents in the ink not entirely evaporating before laminating. We believe by using the Roland profile more ink is applied during the printing processes with this more solvent is present than can dissipate in 24 hours. Over time around twelve to eighteen months the active solvents swim out into the light or unprinted areas of the graphic and get burned.
I recommend downloading the profiles from our website the match you print setup and the specific material you are printing. Using these custom-designed profiles applies less solvent to the material. With fewer solvents, present 24 hours of outgassing will be more appropriate. Unless the areas are dark, heavy saturated colors like black, red, or blue these, colors can have excess solvent and will need to outgas longer. They way you outgas can have an effect on the evaporation processes as well. If you are leaving the prints on the take-up roll, they need to be unwound enough to allow air to get between the layers of material. The same would hold true if you are stacking the prints. The solvents have to be able to evaporate. I hope this information is helpful. Please feel free to contact me anytime you have any questions.

Kind Regards,

Tim Wright

 

[GaSouthpaw]

That's a cheap laminate.
What were you expecting ?

That's exactly what I was thinking.

From the material's spec sheet: "For best results, utilize ORAFOL ICC profiles available at www.orafolamericas.com and allow solvent-based inks to dry for at least 24 hours(48-72 hours preferred) at 70°F before cutting the graphic to the ink or applying a laminate."
That same spec sheet also says the shelf life is two years when stored @ 68^. Ever been in the warehouse of your local sign supplier? Was it 68^?
It also says "Life Expectancy". That's not (necessarily) the same thing as a warranty- though, in this case, the warranty is four years. But, with these stipulations... "The OCS Warranty from ORAFOL Americas applies to specified combinations of ORAJET® digital media and ORAGUARD®laminating films when used in combination with approved wide-format inkjet printers and OEM ink sets.Covered failures include cracking, blistering, or fading of the media or printed image in vertical exposure applications in the UnitedStates (excluding the following areas, Central & Southern Florida, Central & Southern Texas, Southern Utah, Central & SouthernNevada, Central & Southern Desert areas of California, entire State of New Mexico, and entire State of Arizona, wherein this warrantywill be reduced by 25%). Please see the Outdoor Durability Map for specific details. In the case of these covered failures,the OEM inks will be covered under this warranty based on a proportion of the manufacturers stated ink life expectancy in verticalexposure applications."

Warranty info: http://www.orafol.com/tl_files/content/downloads/warrantydocuments/Americas-GP/OCS_Warranty.pdf
Material info: http://www.orafol.com/tl_files/cont...asheets/americas/en/oraguard/oraguard-210.pdf

 

[Cynosure]

The dreaded outgassing

I had the same issue. Orafol told me i didnt give it enough time to outgas. Only happened to items in the direct sunlight though. About a month latet Fellers released their new catalog....every Orafol product now says "recommends waiting 24 after print to laminate". Now...wether this is true or not I don't know....I'm no scientist

 

[eahicks]

well now, this thread has escalated quickly.



Back to the OP, We have talked to Tim with Orafol and the initial thought is outgassing. It seems that if you use the printer profiles; in this case they are Roland profiles, you have to wait longer than 24 hrs since these profiles lay more ink than the profiles from Orafol.

Pictures of the signs have been sent to Orafol and we are waiting for them to analyze them

as we get more feedback we will pass it along

Pretty typical....pass the blame to the ink, or the vinyl, or the profiles, or the install, or the alignment of the planets on the day it was installed, or.....