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Outbid by competition - fight or flight?

gnubler

gnubler

Active Member
I recently bid on a job for new restaurant signage. I did the storefront signage there 2 years ago for the previous tenant, so already had a site visit/measurements done. The new tenant reached out to me for a quote because they really liked the existing signage and found out I made it, after already getting a quote from another local sign shop. He listed all the specs and sizes, I'm guessing reading off the other quote, so that's what I based my quote on. I told him it was a ballpark estimate until we fine-tuned exact sizes and installation locations, and a design scheme. All I had at this point was a logo - the rest would be designed by me. I feel like my bid was reasonable, and even offered to let them handle the install themselves if it was too expensive (he said they were on a DIY budget and I'm willing to work with people). It came back that I was $1,500 higher than their first bid and they're going with the other sign shop. I'm thinking, HOW? That's a pretty big difference, but without seeing the details of the other quote I can only speculate. I know the other shop in question and they've been around for 30+ years, so definitely not newbies.

When you get feedback like this how do you handle it? Try to find out why you were so much higher? Try to push the sale more aggressively? Or just let it go, with a take it or leave it approach? The customer might be full of it also, to see if I'll come down in price. Do you ever refigure lower counter-offers to try to get the job? I did that once, downgrading some sign panels from acrylic to PVC for a lower price point, and STILL didn't get the job. I can accept that I'm not going to get every job and generally just let them go without a fight. My prices are what they are, and it seems shady to suddenly drop your price and come up with an explanation as to why.
 
Gino

Gino

Premium Subscriber
If you're bidding off a spec sheet, there's nothing much you can do if it's all legit across the table. If the overall quote is $20k or something, there could be some discrepancy in labor costs. However, if this is just a couple thousand all total, you're just higher without anything to counter, cause you can't say you'll use lesser materials and it's hard to find a way to save $1,500 in labor costs.
 
Ray Miller

Ray Miller

Owner
If it's that big of a difference I might ask the person if they wouldn't mind sharing with me where I'm off with my numbers. Maybe next time you can look closer at this sort of problem and correct it for your future quoting. Thank them for letting you bid and be nice and remember you if there's anything else in the future.
 
gnubler

gnubler

Active Member
Ray Miller said:
If it's that big of a difference I might ask the person if they wouldn't mind sharing with me where I'm off with my numbers.
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That's what I'm curious about but didn't think it was appropriate to ask this of a potential customer. Why would they even care or take the time to share it with me? Seems nosy and even tacky.

I'm letting this one go because I'm more interested in seeing what kind of signage ends up being installed by the other shop, and if I was indeed quoting apples to apples.
 
gnubler

gnubler

Active Member
Gino said:
If you're bidding off a spec sheet, there's nothing much you can do if it's all legit across the table. If the overall quote is $20k or something, there could be some discrepancy in labor costs. However, if this is just a couple thousand all total, you're just higher without anything to counter, cause you can't say you'll use lesser materials and it's hard to find a way to save $1,500 in labor costs.
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My bid came out to just under $5K for everything. About $1500 of that was for labor (including boom lift). No way could/would I do that entire project for $3500, if that's what the other shop is actually charging.
 
Gino

Gino

Premium Subscriber
Ya hafta remember, they probably don't hafta rent a boom and are more capable of doing this sorta work, therefore faster. Perhaps their markup isn't as high, either.

edit: I've also often times have asked a customer where I went wrong with my quote and usually they are more than happy to tell you.
 
gnubler

gnubler

Active Member
Because they're in the midst of getting a new business up and running and probably have enough on their plate. They just want their signs, not to make friends with random sign shops.

Gino - the other shop doesn't have their own lift, but I did think of that...maybe they have a buddy who does and they just borrow it in exchange for a 30 pack of Keystone or something.
 
Notarealsignguy

Notarealsignguy

Arial - it's almost helvetica
gnubler said:
Because they're in the midst of getting a new business up and running and probably have enough on their plate. They just want their signs, not to make friends with random sign shops.

Gino - the other shop doesn't have their own lift, but I did think of that...maybe they have a buddy who does and they just borrow it in exchange for a 30 pack of Keystone or something.
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You pay me with Keystone and I'm gonna put your sign on upside down.
 
White Haus

White Haus

Not a Newbie
We recently had something like this happen. Dealing with a new guy at an existing client's location. Super chatty/annoying/inappropriate/irritating kind of guy that seemed like he was off his rocker. Over the span of a week and several (useless) phonecalls, he told me no less than 5 times that he was new and had only been there for 3 weeks. Ok cool, on with it then. (One of those "did you get my email?" type of guys that calls as they hit send)

Back and forth for a week to design some simple equipment decals for a new line they're going to be selling. Get the design approved by his boss, then I send over a quote for the 5 different variations. (This is an existing customer, otherwise I wouldn't be going through all that before getting to quoting) No response for a couple of days (dummy had been breathing down my neck too) so I send a friendly follow up email.

A day later I get an email from his boss (CEO of the company) saying dummy is no longer with the company, and they got a quote that is significantly less than mine (less than half). I asked to see the specs to make sure we're talking apples to apples because you'd have to be desperate or crazy to price it that low, with it being a bunch of tiny laminated text. I also reminded him that it's probably easy for them to underbid when they're working off my files. No response.

I was pissed for a day then moved on. I don't negotiate with terrorists. The low-ballers can have them, and kiss my ass too while they're at it.
 
JBurton

JBurton

Signtologist
If I'm bringing a bucket truck, setup and breakdown for an acm panel might be 5 minutes, and that's talking to the customer too.
vs
Driving to a rental place, loading a lift or hooking to a trailer, drive to site, unload, set up, install, reload, return, pay for lift, drive back to the shop. Easily all this adds an hour, if not more depending on how many folks are returning/picking up.
 
Billct2

Billct2

Active Member
The bucket truck thing can work the other way too. Some big companies will send a bucket truck and to install a sign I can do with a pickup truck and ladder, so in those cases I have the advantage.
 
S

signheremd

New Member
They asked about installing it themselves... did the other shop exclude installation from the quote? That might be the difference in cost.
 
gnubler

gnubler

Active Member
I separated the signage from install costs in case they wanted to DIY. No idea what the other sign shop will or will not be doing, but either way there's no way I could knock $1500 off my quote to be competitive on this one, that's huge. With any luck I'll see the install happening in person and will know right away if they hired the "will work for beer" guys standing on the roof of their van to install the signs.
 
JBurton

JBurton

Signtologist
Billct2 said:
The bucket truck thing can work the other way too. Some big companies will send a bucket truck and to install a sign I can do with a pickup truck and ladder, so in those cases I have the advantage.
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Not gonna say you're wrong, we'll send out a bucket truck to carry a ladder to a hospital for an interior vinyl install if the pickups are all out and about (or wrecked), but it's not like it cost me any more to send a big truck vs small except in fuel. That's a real cost, but in town it's a small margin.
The real problem is not keeping the truck busy enough to pay for itself!
 
Texas_Signmaker

Texas_Signmaker

Very Active Signmaker
People ask for a bucket truck rate VS pickup truck rate... it's all the same. All my tools and setup are in the bucket. I'm not going back to drop it off and only bring a truck for one job. Everyone pays the same which doesn't make me competitive for small tiny jobs that a vinyl shop could do
 
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