Pat Whatley
New Member
I kind of miss the old Doug who would make 10,000 word posts with links and quotes.
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I want to thank all the members that have upgraded your accounts. I truly appreciate your support of the site monetarily. Supporting the site keeps this site up and running as a lot of work daily goes on behind the scenes. Click to Support Signs101 ...
Outfitting my shop... cutter and printer questions.
- Thread starter The Super Nickel
- Start date
iSign
New Member
the search button is your friend
(I have a humorous memory of perhaps the most scathing retaliatory post I ever wrote... and almost got myself banned from another forum for... and had at least one member swear to never interact with me again, which has held true for 5 years now
...and I got a pm from you Pat...-
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something to the effect of "You are my new Hero!!"
.. if I never told you then, you made my day sending me that!!)The Super Nickel
New Member
Thanks for all the good info!
@Vinylman: You're a hoot! You typed twice as much as everyone else and told me half as much. If you're half as passionate about your businesses as you are ranting, then I'm sure you kick some serious a$$! Hopefully I'll learn a lot from you - sans ranting. I'm here to stay by the way, so I'm looking forward to that "might be available to help you out" bit. Of course you will! You make a great bouncer for the forum, turning away those who are wobbly in the knees. I didn't come kung fu-kicking out of the womb with a squeegee in my hand, but hey, I've got a good head on my shoulders anyway. A little food for thought for you... You said that this "is a profession that I love and work daily at trying to perfect my skills." I love that statement. I'd like to be able to say that one day too. I can't right now, but I will soon.
@JeremySI: I'm jumping in all right, and the reason I'm here is to learn. Thanks for the tip, though. What I'm really looking for however, is the kind of good stuff that came after your post. BTW, the piece of the equipment I know very little about: It's literally about to be dropped in my lap, so how would I know much about it? I've been doing searches but have had trouble knowing where to find good info, hence my arrival at signs101.
@Mainframe (Bill): Thanks, man. That means a lot to me - all of it. Concerning my vector graphics knowledge, it's not fantastic. It's good, but not where it needs to be. I do have an eye for design and layout. My son is actually pretty good with scalable vectors since he's got a fixation with programs like Blender, so that should help. I figure we will be able to teach each other some things. To my advantage is the fact that I am an extremely fast learner with a great memory. Usually if I see something I am interested in (be it a license plate, classified ad, tooling process) I will remember it vividly weeks or even months later.
@AUTO-FX: Outsourcing. That's something I've been giving serious thought too. The gentleman who is going to teach me the basics at his shop also suggested I could outsource to him initially if I wanted too. Today I was at my brother's workplace and he told me who they get all of their banners from. He originally dealt with several sign and graphics companies only to find out they all outsource to one guy for their large banner jobs. This guy will do work for the public but doesn't push that since he gets so many banner jobs from other companies. Thanks for bringing this helpful point up.
@speedmedia (Kurt): Thanks for the sobering account. I definitely don't want to end up in that boat. I'm easing into this with the idea that knowledge will be the key to getting things right, so I'm taking it slow. This is no emergency for me by any means. As far as undercutting other people's prices, I don't think that's my style at all. Will I ever quote a job cheaper than a more experienced tradesman? Absolutely - but within reason. When I'm a salty dog in the trade I expect there will be others who charge less than me. Customers will get what they pay for. That being said, I'm certain that I will be nowhere near the bottom of the barrel in terms of quality workmanship. My prices will be in the same neighborhood as is expected for my type and quality of work within the industry.
@yukon: Everything you said - Exactly!!! I'm 38, and barely missed the birth of the modern internet while in high school. I'm certain I would have gone a different path career-wise if I had the kind of information at my fingertips that I do now - and of course folks like you who are willing to share.
@Pat Whatley: Awesome advice, man! I really appreciate your real-world example about subbing out print jobs. This is great information for me. I'm a great public speaker, which will hopefully translate into a decent salesman. I've been told I could sell sand to a camel in the desert. It's time to see if I can sell signs in the city. Oh yeah, I'm an ex-Jar Head too. Thick-skinned doesn't begin to describe it either.
@fmg and wrapswrapswraps (that felt strange.): Thanks for the welcome!
@iSign: You know what you're talking about in this post. It's obvious that you know about or have at least given considerable thought to the nuances associated with Aspie's. Spot on. And, of course, you're certainly right about harnessing passion. Better late than never isn't too cliché for me.
So here's the deal guys (and gals):
I'm not here to cheapen your profession or steal food from your babie's mouths, nor am I here to prove my superior, rock star sign making skills. However, I will start in this business wherever I have too in order to learn the ropes, even if that means I have to do yard signs for politicians I would never vote for. I certainly plan to explore more creative avenues eventually, but I will be happy to learn what I need to know through hard work and serious thought.
I'm glad I found you guys (all of you.) :U Rock:
@Vinylman: You're a hoot! You typed twice as much as everyone else and told me half as much. If you're half as passionate about your businesses as you are ranting, then I'm sure you kick some serious a$$! Hopefully I'll learn a lot from you - sans ranting. I'm here to stay by the way, so I'm looking forward to that "might be available to help you out" bit. Of course you will! You make a great bouncer for the forum, turning away those who are wobbly in the knees. I didn't come kung fu-kicking out of the womb with a squeegee in my hand, but hey, I've got a good head on my shoulders anyway. A little food for thought for you... You said that this "is a profession that I love and work daily at trying to perfect my skills." I love that statement. I'd like to be able to say that one day too. I can't right now, but I will soon.
@JeremySI: I'm jumping in all right, and the reason I'm here is to learn. Thanks for the tip, though. What I'm really looking for however, is the kind of good stuff that came after your post. BTW, the piece of the equipment I know very little about: It's literally about to be dropped in my lap, so how would I know much about it? I've been doing searches but have had trouble knowing where to find good info, hence my arrival at signs101.
@Mainframe (Bill): Thanks, man. That means a lot to me - all of it. Concerning my vector graphics knowledge, it's not fantastic. It's good, but not where it needs to be. I do have an eye for design and layout. My son is actually pretty good with scalable vectors since he's got a fixation with programs like Blender, so that should help. I figure we will be able to teach each other some things. To my advantage is the fact that I am an extremely fast learner with a great memory. Usually if I see something I am interested in (be it a license plate, classified ad, tooling process) I will remember it vividly weeks or even months later.
@AUTO-FX: Outsourcing. That's something I've been giving serious thought too. The gentleman who is going to teach me the basics at his shop also suggested I could outsource to him initially if I wanted too. Today I was at my brother's workplace and he told me who they get all of their banners from. He originally dealt with several sign and graphics companies only to find out they all outsource to one guy for their large banner jobs. This guy will do work for the public but doesn't push that since he gets so many banner jobs from other companies. Thanks for bringing this helpful point up.
@speedmedia (Kurt): Thanks for the sobering account. I definitely don't want to end up in that boat. I'm easing into this with the idea that knowledge will be the key to getting things right, so I'm taking it slow. This is no emergency for me by any means. As far as undercutting other people's prices, I don't think that's my style at all. Will I ever quote a job cheaper than a more experienced tradesman? Absolutely - but within reason. When I'm a salty dog in the trade I expect there will be others who charge less than me. Customers will get what they pay for. That being said, I'm certain that I will be nowhere near the bottom of the barrel in terms of quality workmanship. My prices will be in the same neighborhood as is expected for my type and quality of work within the industry.
@yukon: Everything you said - Exactly!!! I'm 38, and barely missed the birth of the modern internet while in high school. I'm certain I would have gone a different path career-wise if I had the kind of information at my fingertips that I do now - and of course folks like you who are willing to share.
@Pat Whatley: Awesome advice, man! I really appreciate your real-world example about subbing out print jobs. This is great information for me. I'm a great public speaker, which will hopefully translate into a decent salesman. I've been told I could sell sand to a camel in the desert. It's time to see if I can sell signs in the city. Oh yeah, I'm an ex-Jar Head too. Thick-skinned doesn't begin to describe it either.
@fmg and wrapswrapswraps (that felt strange.): Thanks for the welcome!
@iSign: You know what you're talking about in this post. It's obvious that you know about or have at least given considerable thought to the nuances associated with Aspie's. Spot on. And, of course, you're certainly right about harnessing passion. Better late than never isn't too cliché for me.
So here's the deal guys (and gals):
I'm not here to cheapen your profession or steal food from your babie's mouths, nor am I here to prove my superior, rock star sign making skills. However, I will start in this business wherever I have too in order to learn the ropes, even if that means I have to do yard signs for politicians I would never vote for. I certainly plan to explore more creative avenues eventually, but I will be happy to learn what I need to know through hard work and serious thought.
I'm glad I found you guys (all of you.) :U Rock:
Pat Whatley
New Member
Nickel, you're gonna be alright. Welcome aboard.
anotherdog
New Member
Wow did this thread get lost.
To get back to the original premise...
Are you buying a sign business from a craigslist ad?
This "distant" mentor will not be able to give you enough training to matter if you are just visiting. The fact that they don't like email or telephones screams trouble (spelt SCAM).
If you really really have a hankering for the sign business, go to a local reputable supplier and negotiate some hand holding. Do not go discount for your startup machine. If you can't afford a decent startup cost you should buy the lamnmower instead...
I just got quoted $250 a month for my property, thats why I bought the lawn tractor.
To get back to the original premise...
Are you buying a sign business from a craigslist ad?
This "distant" mentor will not be able to give you enough training to matter if you are just visiting. The fact that they don't like email or telephones screams trouble (spelt SCAM).
If you really really have a hankering for the sign business, go to a local reputable supplier and negotiate some hand holding. Do not go discount for your startup machine. If you can't afford a decent startup cost you should buy the lamnmower instead...
I just got quoted $250 a month for my property, thats why I bought the lawn tractor.
studio 440
New Member
:Welcome:
thanks for your service
thanks for your service
iSign
New Member
@super nickel:
my sister was born 2 months premature, started her life out in an incubator for a time, and then appeared to be developing normally (so I'm told... I was not yet 2 years old)... but by the time she passed her first birthday with no signs of walking or talking, the concerns began. Her road was a tough one, with some periods of special education, all sorts of experimental therapy, and a stigma that comes from not fitting well among the other children, that to this day is the root of a good deal of her emotional challenges, alongside whatever form of learning disability or autism she suffers from. My father abandoned his decades of pursuit of an unrelated career & studied special education, where he spent the remaining years of his working life, because the process of seeking the best education & the best care for his daughter had permanently changed his priorities.
Anyway, having been "diagnosed' with all manner of labels from brain damaged, to retarded, autistic, or learning disabled... my sister has wandered through an incredible assortment of interests from learning Greek and Arabic languages, astronomy, jewelry making & studying the Koran... she is quite intelligent, and "capable" as one might guess from her accomplishments.. but she has never held a job for any significant period of time. "Fitting in" is the biggest challenge, and as mentioned above, the consequences of not fitting during the formative elementary school years has added to the uphill battle, in my opinion...
..but my sister discovered Temple Grandin's book, Thinking in Pictures and felt as if she were looking in the mirror, or hearing someone describe the world inside her head that she could not have described even as well... so of course I read it too, and short of a clinical diagnosis of Asperger's Syndrome, I am as convinced she is as correct as one needs to be in identifying a condition by reference to a large enough population of similarly uniquely challenged peers, as to adopt that name as the description for her unique challenges...
...anyway, with that little bit of background out of the way.. I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors. I have thought many times that my sister would be able to do the bulk of what I do every day... but that does not appear to be her destiny. If you see an interest in this field, within your son, one can easily understand why you would make every effort to nurture that.
Because of what I read, and what I've experienced, I do feel that the daily challenge of selling work, may be the single greatest hurdle if your son has any similar issues with regards to learning to read people, and respond quickly to accurate perceptions of their needs, or comfort level with a transaction... and while I readily acknowledge that everyone is so different, I don't presume to know how relevant this is.. but in an effort to find something useful to say, I will add that there are many many large company's who run vinyl sign departments for extensive in-house work. I can imagine it might be worthwhile to pursue contracts providing cut vinyl to that sort of large vendor, with the possible advantage of learning to excel in a set of production skills that could be done independently, without the additional small business challenge of daily unpredictable customer service & sales challenges...
I hope I'm not too out in left field comparing your situation to mine. I will limit my contributions to sign advice from here on, but I thought I'd explain why I am more inclined to attempt to help on any inquiries you may have, by phone or email as well...
my sister was born 2 months premature, started her life out in an incubator for a time, and then appeared to be developing normally (so I'm told... I was not yet 2 years old)... but by the time she passed her first birthday with no signs of walking or talking, the concerns began. Her road was a tough one, with some periods of special education, all sorts of experimental therapy, and a stigma that comes from not fitting well among the other children, that to this day is the root of a good deal of her emotional challenges, alongside whatever form of learning disability or autism she suffers from. My father abandoned his decades of pursuit of an unrelated career & studied special education, where he spent the remaining years of his working life, because the process of seeking the best education & the best care for his daughter had permanently changed his priorities.
Anyway, having been "diagnosed' with all manner of labels from brain damaged, to retarded, autistic, or learning disabled... my sister has wandered through an incredible assortment of interests from learning Greek and Arabic languages, astronomy, jewelry making & studying the Koran... she is quite intelligent, and "capable" as one might guess from her accomplishments.. but she has never held a job for any significant period of time. "Fitting in" is the biggest challenge, and as mentioned above, the consequences of not fitting during the formative elementary school years has added to the uphill battle, in my opinion...
..but my sister discovered Temple Grandin's book, Thinking in Pictures and felt as if she were looking in the mirror, or hearing someone describe the world inside her head that she could not have described even as well... so of course I read it too, and short of a clinical diagnosis of Asperger's Syndrome, I am as convinced she is as correct as one needs to be in identifying a condition by reference to a large enough population of similarly uniquely challenged peers, as to adopt that name as the description for her unique challenges...
...anyway, with that little bit of background out of the way.. I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors. I have thought many times that my sister would be able to do the bulk of what I do every day... but that does not appear to be her destiny. If you see an interest in this field, within your son, one can easily understand why you would make every effort to nurture that.
Because of what I read, and what I've experienced, I do feel that the daily challenge of selling work, may be the single greatest hurdle if your son has any similar issues with regards to learning to read people, and respond quickly to accurate perceptions of their needs, or comfort level with a transaction... and while I readily acknowledge that everyone is so different, I don't presume to know how relevant this is.. but in an effort to find something useful to say, I will add that there are many many large company's who run vinyl sign departments for extensive in-house work. I can imagine it might be worthwhile to pursue contracts providing cut vinyl to that sort of large vendor, with the possible advantage of learning to excel in a set of production skills that could be done independently, without the additional small business challenge of daily unpredictable customer service & sales challenges...
I hope I'm not too out in left field comparing your situation to mine. I will limit my contributions to sign advice from here on, but I thought I'd explain why I am more inclined to attempt to help on any inquiries you may have, by phone or email as well...
Mainframe
New Member
TSN, I also wanted to mention something about equipment & supplies. One of your greatest assets can be a good supplier, they sometimes offer advice about what material may work for certain jobs etc, also is there one that has local delivery to you? This is important because if you can get your hands on supplies quickly you don't have to stock as much & you can satisfy the customer. I use a company called NGlantz & Son do you know if they have a branch near you? if they do you are set! Also and just as important a good sign machine supplier is sometimes also a good source for info, I bought my first sign machine from a company called Beacon graphics, they by chance had a working sign shop at the time (not sure about now but they may still have the same deal going) & since I bought my machine from them I could call for advice, it was a great help in my early days. Proveer sells sign machines & equipment & seem to be helpful in that respect. I also want to mention installing signs, I have a good deal of install work & use a 40 foot boom truck, it comes in handy & I wouldn't want to run things without it, like I said before I can help in this area also, I will pm you my phone # & you can call me if you want, It my be the best way for you to get started. I am not too good with drama, I leave that to the the ladies, If you are mechanical & you are a fast learner then I am sure you will be able to accomplish whatever you want in this business.
The Super Nickel
New Member
@iSign: You're not out in left field at all. Once again, you're right on. Fitting in is the issue with my son. Also, my son told me way before we heard of Temple Grandin that he thinks in pictures. The only difference in your sister's story and my son's is that I probably insulated him from feeling like he had to fit in. It was much to the chagrin of family and friends, but in the end I think it's going to work out fine. He'll never find his place in the world until he finds himself and unlocks his genius. That will never happen while trying to please the crowd.
It's funny you mentioned the in-house sign departments of large companies. I was talking to my wife yesterday about how my son might eventually be able to do alright in such a position if we had some contracts with those types of customers now. If he couldn't work with me, but was excellent in some skill sets, he could find a little niche where he could be semi-insulated if need be.
It's funny you mentioned the in-house sign departments of large companies. I was talking to my wife yesterday about how my son might eventually be able to do alright in such a position if we had some contracts with those types of customers now. If he couldn't work with me, but was excellent in some skill sets, he could find a little niche where he could be semi-insulated if need be.
Williams Signs
New Member
You guys keep telling him to buy a lawnmower if he can't afford a printer. My brother has a landscaping company and he pays as much for his mowers as we do our printers. A new SCAG 61 inch mower will cost you $13,000.00. A Venttrac used will run you 20 grand. There is money to be made in lawn care and landscaping. My brother has one account that is $250,00.00 a year. The sign business is just as challenging as lawn care. Just like the sign industry, you have people getting into lawn care that under cuts the same as in our industry. Whatever route you take you have to have passion and an eagerness to learn. Rock On Nickel and good luck. I have a nephew that has Autism.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
Skirting around all the drama...... welcome from PA................................
The 'going' is going to be tough for many reasons and it's not gonna be any easier on your son. I would use your 'Search Button' feature here and read up on quite a bit.
As the saying goes, there are no dumb questions, just answers. I know Vinyl's post sounded harsh and downright rude, but there is a lot of truth in what he says about the industry. For your sake and your son's.... you will have to do double duty and try extra hard to read between the lines.
In life, there's always some good in the bad and regardless of how you receive the message, don't ignore it's true meaning.
The 'going' is going to be tough for many reasons and it's not gonna be any easier on your son. I would use your 'Search Button' feature here and read up on quite a bit.
As the saying goes, there are no dumb questions, just answers. I know Vinyl's post sounded harsh and downright rude, but there is a lot of truth in what he says about the industry. For your sake and your son's.... you will have to do double duty and try extra hard to read between the lines.
In life, there's always some good in the bad and regardless of how you receive the message, don't ignore it's true meaning.
The Super Nickel
New Member
Please forgive me for being so vague in my original post. My distant mentor is a friend of the family who lives a couple of states away. He's offered to show me the basics. He shared that he'll get bogged down trying to run his business and work with me by phone and email at the same time - especially since he's not sure that we'll be using the same vocabulary. I think what he says makes a lot of sense.
I'm not one to look a gift horse in the mouth, ya know? I've already decided this is going to happen. So why would I not want all of the firsthand help and experience I can get? I'm sure there are many here who can teach me more than my friend, and could teach my friend a lot too. I'm all for it. Bring it on. This guy started as an underdog, has been in for several years and is supporting a wife and four children with it. Wouldn't it be silly for me to pass on the chance to check out his shop and document all of his processes?
I'm not buying the lawnmower. I'm not buying the lawnmower. I'm not buying... Oops, sorry. There's an echo in this thread.
I have a feeling that your "decent startup cost" is way out of my league, which essentially means I won't be any real competition for you anyway, right? In that case I don't see how it makes a lick of difference whether I surf a used Summa and outsource, or ride around on a lawnmower with a box of jumbo crayons. (That would be my old mower, by the way.)
After perusing your website I'd say that you cater to a different customer than I would initially. I'll also wager that many in the industry started out just like I am and have risen to the top. I'm glad there are many here who haven't forgotten where they came from.
No hard feelings from me. I'm just lovin' the dialogue. I've learned a lot in a short period of time here already. If I sound a little sarcastic it's because I should be cutting the grass one more time, (which I really don't enjoy) and some people just can't quit talking about lawnmowers.
The Super Nickel
New Member
Thanks for the welcome, and I know you're right. Just because someone is rude doesn't mean they're not speaking the truth in general terms.
The Super Nickel
New Member
That's kind of what I've been thinking but didn't feel like pricing mowers to verify (since I don't want to buy one. Did I already mention that?)
Anyway, I've known guys who started out with a Murray 3.5 horsepower junk mower and now they're lawn care kingpins. They had a passion for it. Well, some of them actually had a passion for home-based hooka lounges and drug screen exempt employment, but hey, they were definitely passionate about what they did for some reason. That's why they're awesome at their game now.
Thanks for the word of encouragement!
The Super Nickel
New Member
I checked the NGlantz & Son website, and they do have a branch just 30 minutes from my house! It's actually on the way to my current job in K.C.
I'm glad you mentioned them because I was wondering who to check out first.
A boom truck, huh? Wow. I used to weave a boom when I was clearing power lines. I'm sure that truck is a great tool for you.
Looking forward to learning from you. Thanks so much for the help.