Paint Failure

[Moosehead Signs]

Has anyone had issues with Jay Cooks All Purpose Primer. Been in the sign business since 1978 and you'd think I was a beginner from these results. I have been using the same paint system for almost 15 years & never had a problem. Just cannot figure it. I haven't changed anything in my production...is there a problem with Cookes Primer, I notice he isn't in business anymore or I cannot locate him. I have been using Behr Paints for 20 years

Thank you, Tom

Paint Failure - Google Drive

 

[Billct2]

First of all, beautiful work, and obviously you have a lot of experience applying paint that has to stick from sub zero to 100 degrees and humid so I doubt you made any errors. I haven't used Jays stuff in quite a while, but I have had experience with various products formulas changing without me knowing about it, which can lead to failures. There's also the possibility you got a bad batch, maybe it was in unheated storage and froze? Does the failure look like the primer wasn't dry (even it it was)?

 

[Moosehead Signs]

First of all, beautiful work, and obviously you have a lot of experience applying paint that has to stick from sub zero to 100 degrees and humid so I doubt you made any errors. I haven't used Jays stuff in quite a while, but I have had experience with various products formulas changing without me knowing about it, which can lead to failures. There's also the possibility you got a bad batch, maybe it was in unheated storage and froze? Does the failure look like the primer wasn't dry (even it it was)?

Thank you Bill...I am totally bewildered at this. I also just placed a Alupanel that was primed with UMA Bonding Primer and coated with brand spanking new behr high gloss, sat in the shop for 2 weeks and after being in the rain for a few hours, it looks like a bad case of pimples??????

We have put together a slew of test pieces and have found that the flat paint seams to be ok. We're thinking to eliminate the primer on HDU, but now seeing it happen on Alupanel, I'm clueless.

 

[Moosehead Signs]

First of all, beautiful work, and obviously you have a lot of experience applying paint that has to stick from sub zero to 100 degrees and humid so I doubt you made any errors. I haven't used Jays stuff in quite a while, but I have had experience with various products formulas changing without me knowing about it, which can lead to failures. There's also the possibility you got a bad batch, maybe it was in unheated storage and froze? Does the failure look like the primer wasn't dry (even it it was)?

On the Alupanel the finish coat peals up and leaves the primer and pretty mush on the HDU also. I never had failure with paint mask using the same paint????

 

[AF]

This is a stretch, but years ago a disgruntled employee urinated in a few paint cans. Needless to say, items were ruined and we scratched our heads until the truth came out. Contamination could be your issue.

 

[Moosehead Signs]

This is a stretch, but years ago a disgruntled employee urinated in a few paint cans. Needless to say, items were ruined and we scratched our heads until the truth came out. Contamination could be your issue.

Yep that's a stretch....

 

[Gino]

I'm not sure, but those letters...... are they HDU ??

Looks mostly like there was moisture under the primer and it will dry underneath to a point, but when moisture on the outside develops, it causes the old wetness to actual try to migrate through. It could be between the substrate and the primer or the primer and the top coat. Hard to say. Nonetheless, it might not be p!ss contamination, but there is something in there. Remember, Cooke's stuff is waterbased. How clean are your lines for spraying on the primer ?? Perhaps you need new lines.

 

[Moosehead Signs]

I'm not sure, but those letters...... are they HDU ??

Looks mostly like there was moisture under the primer and it will dry underneath to a point, but when moisture on the outside develops, it causes the old wetness to actual try to migrate through. It could be between the substrate and the primer or the primer and the top coat. Hard to say. Nonetheless, it might not be p!ss contamination, but there is something in there. Remember, Cooke's stuff is water based. How clean are your lines for spraying on the primer ?? Perhaps you need new lines.

Thanks for the input Gino but I do not think so. I can spray Behr flat and it is fine. Also never see any fish eyes spraying the UMA Bonding Primer on the Alupanel. If it was contamination it would show up as the panel was sprayed. I posted new photos for the Behr folks to analyze. You will see a closeup of the Alupanel issues. This panel I used UMA and Behr Premium Plus High Gloss and was stored in the shop for almost 3 weeks.

 

[tbullo]

I had something like that happen to me once about some years ago. Used Cookes as the primer and painted a dark blue. Was a gold leaf sign as well. Looked great in the shop. Installed it and about 3 weeks later it blistered all up like that. Took it buy my local pro paint shop (ICI at the time) and they said what Gino was saying about the moisture. Sun beating down on it forcing the moisture to try to escape. Believe it or not, I was able to peel the paint and primer off the whole sign after letting it sit face up to the sun. Went ahead and scuffed it up a primed it with FSC-88 and refinished it with no problems.

 

[Moosehead Signs]

I had something like that happen to me once about some years ago. Used Cookes as the primer and painted a dark blue. Was a gold leaf sign as well. Looked great in the shop. Installed it and about 3 weeks later it blistered all up like that. Took it buy my local pro paint shop (ICI at the time) and they said what Gino was saying about the moisture. Sun beating down on it forcing the moisture to try to escape. Believe it or not, I was able to peel the paint and primer off the whole sign after letting it sit face up to the sun. Went ahead and scuffed it up a primed it with FSC-88 and refinished it with no problems.

Thanks for the input but with the alupanel had plenty of dry time also, all these pieces, the primer has not failed and or is pealing up.

 

[Gino]

That's not really fish eye, as much as a delayed orange peel. When I say contamination, I don't necessarily mean wax, oil or dust, but basically something either on the surface, that you aren't getting rid of..... or something that is somehow being added in somewhere along your process..... but unknowingly.

It is odd that it happens to gloss and not matte.

 

[equippaint]

I dont know with water based but we have had similar looking problems when we have solvent painted outside with a low dew point. We painted a steel tower that was hollow in the middle. It gave us hell because the water would condense on it quickly and make little holes in the epoxy. It looked like a mix of solvent pop and fisheyes.
It also looks very similar to the paint failure of putting an alkyd over galvanized steel. It bubbles and comes off in sheets but takes a little time to get there.

 

[Chuck B]

I've experienced this as well, and "intuitively" thought is was Jay Cooke primer failure...(primer and paint both blistered and peeled leaving the raw hdu exposed. I threw all of the Jay Cooke primer out. Also, a colleague from another shop had these issues, and they decided it was the Sherwin Williams paint they were using (I was using Sherwin Williams as well). They switched to Porter paints and have had no issues since. That said, I still don't "really" know the cause of the issues I've had...maybe paint companies "dumbing down" their formulas to make more profit? I don't do a lot of hdu at present, but the next time I do, I'll go with the FSC-88, and pick another brand of paint to try.

 

[Sandman]

Could it be the Behr paint and not your primer? Porter is my favorite for HDU but no one carries it near me any more. I was searching for paint stores that carry Porter and stumbled across a pro painters forum. These guys were slamming Behr paint pretty strongly claiming that the Consumer Reports rating was way off base and that Porter Acri Shield and Sherwin Williams Duration were the best two paints. Just thinking, not accusing.

 

[Moosehead Signs]

I've experienced this as well, and "intuitively" thought is was Jay Cooke primer failure...(primer and paint both blistered and peeled leaving the raw hdu exposed. I threw all of the Jay Cooke primer out. Also, a colleague from another shop had these issues, and they decided it was the Sherwin Williams paint they were using (I was using Sherwin Williams as well). They switched to Porter paints and have had no issues since. That said, I still don't "really" know the cause of the issues I've had...maybe paint companies "dumbing down" their formulas to make more profit? I don't do a lot of hdu at present, but the next time I do, I'll go with the FSC-88, and pick another brand of paint to try.

Thank you for the replies, I very mush appreciate them. I posted more photos, but I gotta say after being in this business (2nd generation) since 1978, I am clueless. If you look at my newly added photos, you will see the Jay cook primer is as hard and bonded to the substrate as you get. No primer failures on any pieces. We power washed the paint off...some went easy and others tougher. Id you look at the small piece of alupanel with yellow and blue, you will see the yellow bubbled and the blue not so much (blue was 2012 eggshell Behr paint. You could not scratch it bue the gloss yellow came right off.
I am waiting to hear from Behr for there evaluation...seem that is the only common denominator is the Behr Glossy. Although if you look at my Carved signs with the skirt for the posts, it too is BHG and has been up since 2012, it looks great.
Paint Failure - Google Drive

 

[Moosehead Signs]

I also added photos og the carved camp sign with the trout. Once I brought it inside for an hour or so it flattened out. I plan on coating it with a water based clear on the green only, hoping to seal it. The strange thing is the trout I use all leftover behr colors from other jobs...some quite old and it did nothing??? (carved in HDU with 2 coats of fiberglass resin, primed when still tacky with UMA Bonding Primer)

 

[Jean Shimp]

Had something similar a couple years ago. Put up a whole set of HDU letters and used a Ronan bronze top coat. Was fine until it rained. Then bubble city. Replaced the entire set of letters are using a Porter top coat - guess what. Same thing happened. Finally did a third set and used Sherwin Williams. No problem. Funny thing is I still can't figure out what went wrong. I tried recreating the problem with identical paints and nothing happened. We've made hundreds of HDU signs and on rare occasions we get a blister using dark colors. Seems like Porter was the culprit then. But nothing like the massive blistering "pimples" all over. I'm more careful about painting now. Use FC 88 for primer and watching top coats. Haven't had any new problems lately.

 

[Moosehead Signs]

Thanks for your input Jean, I notice a few have commented about using FC 88. I have used this and it is a good primer but I am not seeing the primer as a problem since the blue panel was UMA Bonding primer on Alupanel and only the finish coats bubbled and though it cam off harder and left a lot of paint on, the finish coat failed.

I did put a coat of Chromatic acrylic clear on the carved trout camp sign (green only) left it out in the sun with a pool of water on...held up fine. So somehow it seems the finish latex coat is allowing moisture to migrate through. I will leave it out all night and see.

 

[a77]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread. What is FC 88 primer?

 

[Sandman]

FSC 88 is a primer sold by Coastal Enterprises makers of Precision Board HDU. It is a water based primer with a massive amount of solids in it. Their HDU is a lirrle more textured than others in other words the cells in their HDU are larger and a high build primer fills them in for a dead smooth finish. What I don't understand about several posters in this topic is why are they priming ACM? All you need to do is scuff the paint already their and paint over it. I've sprayed automotive base clear, rolled One Shot (back when it was decent paint) and rolled Porter AcriShield withour any failures. When it comes to HDU, all of the manufacturers say you have to thoroughly clean the HDU after machining and before painting or you will get those large blisters. Latex paint HDU and ACM will be slow to cure because the moisture can only escape through the top. Latex paint can take over a month to cure although I can't see it making all those dimples after a week, after all the instructions on every can of latex I've seen says don't paint if rain is expected within 24 hours.