Poll: Are you printing CMYK, or RGB files from Versaworks?

[CSOCSO]

Its funny that some of you mentioned that colors pop better in RGB.
My boss yelled my face off when I accidentally designed something in CMYK.
When he took some time off (2 weeks) I had a project where the customer asked me to print something pink. It had to be super bright popping pink.
So first I designed it in RGB. When printed the file it looked awful. I couldn't figure it out why the pink came out ugly red so I tried something new. Converted to file to CMYK. Right off the bat the whole picture turned from vivid pink to dull pink on my screen. But I printed it anyway. BOOOOOOM it was sooooo pink I had to put sunglasses on.
-whereisyourGODnow.jpg-

By the way I think the trick to print gorgeous CMYK is to:
click on file in versaworks
quality tab
color management on the bottom
in Presets chose MAX impact
this will change the cmyk settings from USWebCoatedSwop to RolandCMYK
I think I also chose use primary colors

I do have a few question:
1)If your roland printer has a black, magenta, cyan and yellow ink cartridges why would you print an rgb file?!
2)If your roland printer is in CMYK mode why would you print in RGB?!
[there is a way to set your printer to rgb or cmyk mode. I think its in the technician menu which you can only bring up with some secret code on the keypads-pretty sure every printer is set to cmyk by default]
3)Its funny how the colors lose vividness as soon as you convert them from RGB to CMYK. But isn't that only on our screen and it will print differently?
4)If you get a cmyk AI file from a 3rd party designer and you import the layers in to photoshop so you can save them to tiff then make sure you create a new document in PS with CMYK settings.
I had a file where i imported from CMYK AI to RGB PS document and the colors where dull and ugly. Then I converted the pic to cmyk and everything was more vivid.
5) also when I had to print something gray I saved the file in cmyk and chose max impact and preserve primary colors and the grey actually came out good and not greenish gray.


Basically what I recommend is that if you need to print something and test it how it would look like print it in 10th scale and print something in rgb then cmyk then chose the preset to max impact and print both files again. now try max impact with embedded icc option and print both files then max impact again and just chose preserve primary colors.
Post results.



see the color differences??
the bottom lines are anything but nice pinks.

 

[Kentucky Wraps]

Its funny that some of you mentioned that colors pop better in RGB.
My boss yelled my face off when I accidentally designed something in CMYK.
When he took some time off (2 weeks) I had a project where the customer asked me to print something pink. It had to be super bright popping pink.
So first I designed it in RGB. When printed the file it looked awful. I couldn't figure it out why the pink came out ugly red so I tried something new. Converted to file to CMYK. Right off the bat the whole picture turned from vivid pink to dull pink on my screen. But I printed it anyway. BOOOOOOM it was sooooo pink I had to put sunglasses on.
-whereisyourGODnow.jpg-


see the color differences??
the bottom lines are anything but nice pinks.

100% Magenta = best pink CMYK can do. A touch of cyan sometimes.

 

[Joe Diaz]

By the way I think the trick to print gorgeous CMYK is to:
click on file in versaworks
quality tab
color management on the bottom
in Presets chose MAX impact
this will change the cmyk settings from USWebCoatedSwop to RolandCMYK
I think I also chose use primary colors

I do have a few question:
1)If your roland printer has a black, magenta, cyan and yellow ink cartridges why would you print an rgb file?!
Because little gnomes live inside the printer and sprinkle magic dust on your prints if you send them as RGB. Don't know the technical reason but either the hardware or software can take a rgb file and print a bit more vibrant colors even with cmyk inks. Maybe not near as vibrant as what you are seeing on the screen, but it's better than what you get with cmyk

2)If your roland printer is in CMYK mode why would you print in RGB?!
Same as above. Has to be the gnomes.

3)Its funny how the colors lose vividness as soon as you convert them from RGB to CMYK. But isn't that only on our screen and it will print differently?
Nope. At least not in our experience. Again the RGB colors may not be as vibrant as what you have on the screen, but they may depend on your screen and software. In Corel there is a way to set your color management to better match your output, however as soon as you take a look at your exported art, it may look neon/toxic/super bright. But when you print it's closer to what you were designing with. It's going to be next to impossible to get those super bright RGB colors you see on the screen because you are looking at light color not surface/pigment/ink color. But RBG still prints more vivid than CMYK files.

4)If you get a cmyk AI file from a 3rd party designer and you import the layers in to photoshop so you can save them to tiff then make sure you create a new document in PS with CMYK settings. 95 percent of the stuff we print are designed in house, otherwise we would request the client provide the ready to print artwork. But if I had to do what you are saying and the artwork was designed in CMYK, I would export in CMYK. However, even if I did export an RGB file, since RGB has a wider gamut and it was designed with CMYK colors, it would still print those same CMYK values.

I had a file where i imported from CMYK AI to RGB PS document and the colors where dull and ugly. Then I converted the pic to cmyk and everything was more vivid.That sounds like the opposite of what should happen. RGB has a wider color gamut.
5) also when I had to print something gray I saved the file in cmyk and chose max impact and preserve primary colors and the grey actually came out good and not greenish gray.
[/COLOR]

So I tested this again. Your Max Impact comments had me curious. I'm no Roland printer expert, clearly by my gnome comments. However, we have tested our printers over and over again to get the best color results and we have had Roland printers for the better part of 10 years now. So we know what works well for us. We always come back to RGB. and Like I said, if for no other reason, because of how gradients turn out. Sure we can get slightly more vivid colors with RGB files but the gradients and the mixing of colors is the number one reason.

What I did was create a test examples in Corel. I used the brightes RGB colors I could pick out (not really colors I normally use). Colors that are impossible to get with CMYK due to the fact the RGB has the wider color Gamut. I then exported that file as an RGB tiff, and then as a CMYK tiff and printed them both, using the default prepress setting, then the "Max Impact" setting. Here is what we found:




The pictures don't quite capture what's going on here. You'll have to test it in person to see. Also I tested this on cheap vinyl we had hanging around. But as you can see we are getting slightly more vivid colors with the RGB artwork. Not that much more vivd but enough to convince us to continue using RGB, But again I'll say the main reason for RGB are the gradients. Take a look at the CMYK side. See how the gradients are gray and dull in the middle?

The Max Impact made no difference with the CMYK colors, it did however add a light blue tint to the RGB file as you can see in the second photo. (you can kind of see a slight bluish color box on the white areas of the print)

Here are the files I used if you want to see for yourself: http://diazsignart.com/client_jobs/RGB_CMYK_TEST.zip

Also, on a somewhat related note: The printer does appear to use slightly more ink when printing RGB, if that is a big deal for some of you,

 

[tomence]

Joe Diaz

How do you setup your CorelDraw page for RGB and what color pallet do you use.

Thanks

 

[Joe Diaz]

Joe Diaz

How do you setup your CorelDraw page for RGB and what color pallet do you use.

Thanks

We use X6. Nothing special for our color setup though:



I have several pallets open:
- The default Corel RGB pallet
- a 3M color pallet. (We used that one years ago to help us design layouts with the closest colors to the 3M vinyl we used back in the day. I still use the pallet because I like some of the colors and I'm familiar with where all the colors are located on that one)
- a One Shot color pallet (I keep that one around for the same reason as the 3M one)
- a PMS pallet.
- a custom made Roland Pallet.

Also, I do some design work for Roland, When I do that I use their color pallets, including the metallic pallet they have for Corel.

 

[tomence]

Thanks for the info.

One more thing: What's the best way to save or export files from Corel to import to VW when printing RGB

 

[Terremoto]

1)If your roland printer has a black, magenta, cyan and yellow ink cartridges why would you print an rgb file?!

Number one reason is that the sRGB color space is closest to what the Roland Wide Format Digital Printer is capable of producing (the printer's "gamut"). There are many CMYK color spaces to choose from but most people tend to use the U.S. Web Coated (SWOP) v2 color space. The Roland is NOT an offset printer and can easily produce colors well beyond the U.S. Web Coated (SWOP) v2 color space.

2)If your roland printer is in CMYK mode why would you print in RGB?!
[there is a way to set your printer to rgb or cmyk mode. I think its in the technician menu which you can only bring up with some secret code on the keypads-pretty sure every printer is set to cmyk by default

See above. No way I know of to change the mode of a printer. You're getting confused here.

3)Its funny how the colors lose vividness as soon as you convert them from RGB to CMYK. But isn't that only on our screen and it will print differently?

Proper color management requires that your software be properly configured to avoid redundant conversions, unwanted color shifts, and things of that nature. Improper rendering intent can also have a dramatic impact on output. Rendering intent is basically a way to tell your software how to handle out of gamut colors as it pertains to your specific output device. If you don't have this right it will cause some unwanted color shift. It's the nature of the beast.

4)If you get a cmyk AI file from a 3rd party designer and you import the layers in to photoshop so you can save them to tiff then make sure you create a new document in PS with CMYK settings.
I had a file where i imported from CMYK AI to RGB PS document and the colors where dull and ugly. Then I converted the pic to cmyk and everything was more vivid.

You obviously don't have your color management properly set up.

5) also when I had to print something gray I saved the file in cmyk and chose max impact and preserve primary colors and the grey actually came out good and not greenish gray.

Here again, you don't have color management set up correctly. Easy to do in CorelDraw X5 and X6 - not so easy in everything else. CorelDraw X5 and X6 do it in an ICC (International Color Consortium) compliant manner - Adobe, not so much.

Not too sure what you're using for design software but if you're using CorelDraw X5 or higher then I would highly recommend you download and print out the PDF available at the following link. Read it over and over until you understand it inside out.

Designer's Guide to Color Management

Basically, RGB to CMYK conversion is pretty straight forward for a modern RIP to handle (providing color management is set up consistently and correctly between all the components of an ICC compliant workflow). That being everything between and including the design software and the output device.

Way more chicken swinging voodoo magic involved in CMYK to RGB conversion.

Once you get a handle on an ICC compliant workflow you will clearly see the benefits of working in RGB. For most the sRGB color space is more than adequate. aRGB may be better for some but then you pretty much need a monitor that's capable of rendering the full aRGB color space (they're available but they aren't cheap) or you're going to be working with color that can't be seen on a monitor with an sRGB profile (because the aRGB color space is considerably larger than the sRGB color space).

ProPhoto RGB and Wide Gamut RGB are best used where accurate and faithful color reproduction is an absolute must but you're going to need deep pockets to round up the equipment necessary to do the job and likely a huge investment in time just to get it all configured, linearized, and working correctly. Definitely not for the faint of heart.

Dan

 

[Terremoto]

We use X6. Nothing special for our color setup though:
View attachment 83099

If you're using Windows 7 you probably want to have your "color engine" set to "Microsoft WCS" instead of "None".

Dan

 

[SIGNTIME]

so how would one go about properly setting up for rgb when using illustrator?

 

[CES020]

First, let me say I don't own a large format printer and I don't use a RIP.

At Sign World, I went to a beginning color management seminar by one of the guys at Tyrrell Tech. Much of what's being discussed here was all covered and, not being from that world, it was very educational and the gamut printouts in 3D was a great lesson for me.

After sitting through that seminar, I left convinced that many people with printers have no idea on what they are doing when it comes to color

After explaining gamuts and showing what the options do like Absolute Colorimetric and Relative Colorimetic, someone asked "But I need to hit THIS color", and he said "You can't". A minute later, "yeah, but how do I hit this color because it's what they specified", and he said "You can't". A few minutes later "But I have to get this color right and I've been fighting it", followed by "You can't hit THAT color, it's outside the gamut of what's possible with the equipment you own".

If you ever get the chance to talk to their color guru at Tyrrell, give him a chance. I came out with a much better understanding of color and I found out many things I do in my workflow don't matter at all to the people I send my print work to.

 

[OADesign]

Lots of good into in this thread.

But i will add my two pennies anyway.

I design everything in RGB to start. It is the widest color gamut. Now mind you, our shop is not at the point where we are creating custom profiles and calibrating our monitors (I wish we would now, but we will in time).
If I'm building an image for offset printing (in photoshop) I start in RGB. If you look closely many of the effects option become disabled if you build in CMYK. When the design is complete, I will flatten a copy and convert to CMYK. I then check for color shifts and adjust accordingly. But most of the time, its within an acceptable range and no adjustment is needed.

Now there is an exception with flexi. Some of the default RGB table colors kind of suck. So I just reset them as save it, overwriting the default table.
I set "Red" to CMYK:C0M100Y100K0
Then i have a "dark red" CMYK:C5M100Y100K30
Flexi default yellow comes out greenish, so I set it to "Yellow":C0M0Y100K0
And the default gray is lame also so, I created several tones that work great.
50%:C0M0Y0K50
40%:C0M0Y0K40
30%:C0M0Y0K30
20%:C0M0Y0K20
10%:C0M0Y0K10
Flexi (as far as i understand) can contain both CMYK and RGB elements.
When it comes to gradients, its trial and error with the RGB vs CMYK color modes.

Now with Illustrator, I find that both CMYK and RGB color palettes print great! no tweaks needed! But be careful. I "think" the default setting for new docs in illy is CMYK. (except for issues with spot color and transparency, but that is not what op asked)

And then there is the Roland Color System Library Available in Roland 8.0 and up and its also available for Illustrator. And the Roland colors have been a savior for me on many occasions. I tell those persnickety color customers like this, "Sorry, but we charge per color for color matching. And I can only do a "close match" as we did not create the original. And the original uses a different process. We are using a 4+2 ecosol printer. It has a mush smaller color gamut then say, your business card printer, or the guy at the Frazee store. There are aslo too many variables that affect color output. Ambient lighting, Media, Lamination and finish (gloss verses matte etc). And we don't have any control over your computers back at your office. So that means we will have to print physical sample for you to approve for every project. Don't worry, we don't charge for these most of the time, but this will delay the process. But what I do have is a color library (RVW). And we can work together to pick a color from it that will be very close. And then I CAN guarantee that your jobs will always be the SAME color... every time."

Usually, that is the end of the discussion and we collect deposit.

 

[Joe Diaz]

If you're using Windows 7 you probably want to have your "color engine" set to "Microsoft WCS" instead of "None".

Dan

That's a screenshot from my brothers computer. Not sure why he has "none"
mine is set to "Microsoft WCS" I've had equally good luck with "ICM CMM"

 

[Joe Diaz]

Thanks for the info.

One more thing: What's the best way to save or export files from Corel to import to VW when printing RGB

"Best way" May be relative. What works for us is this:

We will take a design and create our cut contour (if we need to cut too). We duplicate the design.

We then select all of the art of the duplicated design minus the cut contour and we flatten that into a bitmap. "bitmap" -> "convert to bitmap" (we duplicated in the step before so we have the original vector version incase we ever need to edit it later. )

We select the appropriate resolution then select "RGB" for "color mode"
Then we make sure "anti-aliasing" is checked.

Then we make sure we select everything again. including the newly created bitmap and the vector cut contour and we go to "file" -> "export"

We select EPS, name the file, then select "export"

On the next screen we make sure "Output colors as" is set to "Native" and make sure "Convert spot colors to" is NOT checked. If it is it will change your spot cut contour to another value and your cut contour will not be recognized in versaworks.

And then we make sure we are on PostScript3. Hit "OK" then the file is ready to print.

If we don't need a cut contour we would export it as a tiff.

 

[Joe Diaz]

Some great info here....don't have much time but just wanted to ask...

So Joe, you convert ALL jobs to bitmap before exporting?

Not all, but the majority of them. The reason being is it's a bit more predictable how things like, gradients, transparencies/lenses, and bitmap effects will turn out. If you are just working with simple flat vector shapes there is no reason to flatten it to a bitmap first. So basically you avoid any surprises early on in the process. After you flatten it, what you see before you export it is what you will get.

 

[tomence]

Joe you have been very helpful.
I'm gonna do some testing and see what happens. All i did up until this point is exporting files to eps, but i will try your way and hopefully will get better results.

 

[Roto]

We print RGB. We get some real nice colors on our VersaCamm.

I like the bright greens you can get with RGB, I like the bright blues you can get, same goes for reds. I also think certain gradients look nicer.

For example red to black gradient in CMYK looks like red to grayish-brown to black.
red to black gradient in RGB is red to dark-red to black and looks much nicer.

Somewhere on this forum this was discussed and I printed some tests and posted the results.

What RGB profile do you use in Versaworks?

 

[CSOCSO]

View attachment 83096
View attachment 83097


Here are the files I used if you want to see for yourself: http://diazsignart.com/client_jobs/RGB_CMYK_TEST.zip

Also, on a somewhat related note: The printer does appear to use slightly more ink when printing RGB, if that is a big deal for some of you,

You got something set up wrong over there. Here is the proper CMYK file.
There are no greys in the middle and actually it is a little bit more vivid than your cmyk. You can see it since its a side by side pic
Other than that i think you should use MAX impact on the rgb files anyway. Looks better than the other rgb you have there.


@Terremoto: Believe me, you can set up the mode of the printer between rgb and cmyk.(Roland printer) You have to go in to the tecnician menu with a code using the cursors on the front of the printer. I did it once when I was fairly new with the roland printer.
----------------
Not sure what is that blueish hue in the purple on the pic below. That hue on the middle is not there in my photoshop.

 

[Joe Diaz]

I wouldn't say I have anything set up "wrong", as I don't have a problem printing the colors I want, I just must use a different method.

I don't know what to tell you. The moment I download your file, open it in Windows photo viewer, a few other image viewing programs, and CorelDRAW the colors look dull. I'll test your file at work tomorrow on the printer. What software are you using? OS? etc?

 

[GAC05]

I'll test your file at work tomorrow on the printer. What software are you using? OS? etc?

Does VersaWorks have the option to adjust your icc profiles to compensate for the post apocalyptic pole shift?

wayne k
guam usa

 

[Joe Diaz]

Does VersaWorks have the option to adjust your icc profiles to compensate for the post apocalyptic pole shift?

wayne k
guam usa

LOL nah mine has a flux capacitor so it's set to 1955 mode well before the apocalypse had any effect on icc profiles.

 

[Northern Design]

Joe
You design in Corel with the settings in the previous posting using CMYK simulation that was an eye opener. Then you will print with Versaworks that only has SWOPv2 for CMYK process to print. Don't you get a shift in gamut / color