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Polycarbonate vinyl outgassing

Vinyl.leah

New Member
This might have been a little out of my league experience wise but the client trusts me to make it right. We pulled this street sign down and took it to our our shop. Cleaned it real good with denatured alcohol because the poly had a gross shade of yellow on it. Covered it in white vinyl with the colored vinyl graphics then on top. We did not laminate any of the vinyl. Two weeks later the client called and said it is bubbling real bad. What could be causing the outgassing? The vinyl I used? Not laminating anything? What should I do to fix this?
 

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Texas_Signmaker

Very Active Signmaker
Doesn't look like outgassing bubbles. When I have outgassing from polycarb, there are tons of tiny bubbles evenly spread over a dark colored area. Looks like there is some kind of adhesion problem. Maybe it's because you layered two vinyls? The bubbling seems to only be where the black is. Maybe the black is heating up and seperating from the layer underneath. Did you wet apply?
 

garyroy

New Member
Air release vinyl might have worked better. I would not use someone's old material as a sign base.
That's just buying into some else's problems. Starting from scratch when making signage is usually the best policy unless
you are ready for these kinds of problems.
 

Johnny Best

Active Member
Yellowing on lexan means it has been around for awhile. Outgassing is usually from new lexan. Seems you covered up with white vinyl and put black over that. Is the white and black vinyl cast material?
You either have to redo it, which would be expensive or take an pin tool and punch the bubble and flatten down. Either way is losing money and time.
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
I think the OP printed black on white vinyl and cut it with a hefty outline, instead of just die-cutting black cast vinyl and putting it down. This just boggles the.mind.
 

Johnny Best

Active Member
I think the OP printed black on white vinyl and cut it with a hefty outline, instead of just die-cutting black cast vinyl and putting it down. This just boggles the.mind.
He had to cover the yellow so he put white vinyl over that. I hope you are OK Gino after the boggling thing.
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
Yes, I understand the covering up the yellowed poly with white vinyl, but why on earth would anyone print black on white and then contour cut it out and apply it ?? Why not just cut straight black cast vinyl ?? Verstehen ??
 

petepaz

New Member
looks like it's just the base white vinyl that's bubbling. not sure why, incompatible with the polycarb? maybe not adhering due to the age and weathering of the polycarb? bad mounting?
did you mount it by hand or with a laminator? using a laminator will give you better full coverage pressure for the base mount.
also agree with gino cut black vinyl would look better or just printing the black lettering on the base white vinyl mounted material
 

Lindsey

Not A New Member
It's normal that polycarbonate yellows over time when is exposed to the sun. A sign face that has been outside long enough to go yellow is probably not outgassing anymore. I don't think outgassing is causing the bubbles. My guess is it's either the vinyl or the cleaning with alcohol that is causing it. What brand/type of vinyl did you use?
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
it looks like it wasn't squeegeed down good enough and the air migrated once it got out in the heat

This is saying the same thing. Air movement/migration = outgassing. It wasn't squeegeed enough causing outgassing or whatever YOU wanna call it. So, when hitting the heat, it is completing a chemical reaction to the sun and other elements thus creating this OP's outgassing problems. Hmmmm.... this could become a real phenomenon.
 

Inks

New Member
Cool bit of info there, but I've stuck plenty of sheets of spartec, plaskolite, shefield, and others, and never have I ever cooked a sheet at 250F for an hour. How do you manage that without a purpose built oven?

At any rate this recently happened to me. We printed a set of faces on our hp 560, some in color, some just black/white. Within a week we also did a full coverage black background with white letters next door, out of black cast vinyl. 2 weeks later, the black on white prints are bubbling, everything else is fine. The faces were double layered clear. I stripped the faces and found that the bubbles were between the first layer of black on the poly and the first layer of laminate. Bubbles only appeared in the black region. My heart sank when I thought about the full coverage face next door. It was perfectly fine. Both the cast vinyl and the clear print were laid with rapid tac.
I couldn't say why this location had an issue, I've done the same dual layered prints all over the place, other than the fact it was minimal coverage black ink with a healthy white background. My theory is the ink is actually acting as a barrier, preventing any gasses from permeating outward, but when an unprinted region begins to outgas, it will find the area with the most give and collect, like black lettering being heated by the sun to a more pliable state than the white region surrounding it, giving it the appearance that the black ink is failing.
Long story short I plotted the black and replaced it free. Black cast > Printed black.
Polycarbonate is Hygroscopic, maybe yours was stored in a better environment that some others.
I have sold them all Sabic, Palram, Sheffield etc. all make the same claim. Not saying you cannot get away without the preheat but once you have trouble, this is what they will hit you with.
 
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Texas_Signmaker

Very Active Signmaker
Cool bit of info there, but I've stuck plenty of sheets of spartec, plaskolite, shefield, and others, and never have I ever cooked a sheet at 250F for an hour. How do you manage that without a purpose built oven?

At any rate this recently happened to me. We printed a set of faces on our hp 560, some in color, some just black/white. Within a week we also did a full coverage black background with white letters next door, out of black cast vinyl. 2 weeks later, the black on white prints are bubbling, everything else is fine. The faces were double layered clear. I stripped the faces and found that the bubbles were between the first layer of black on the poly and the first layer of laminate. Bubbles only appeared in the black region. My heart sank when I thought about the full coverage face next door. It was perfectly fine. Both the cast vinyl and the clear print were laid with rapid tac.
I couldn't say why this location had an issue, I've done the same dual layered prints all over the place, other than the fact it was minimal coverage black ink with a healthy white background. My theory is the ink is actually acting as a barrier, preventing any gasses from permeating outward, but when an unprinted region begins to outgas, it will find the area with the most give and collect, like black lettering being heated by the sun to a more pliable state than the white region surrounding it, giving it the appearance that the black ink is failing.
Long story short I plotted the black and replaced it free. Black cast > Printed black.
I've had regular black cut vinyl do the same thing... thousands of tiny bubbles all over the black areas.
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
That's user application problems. Failure to do it correctly does not equate to excuses which will work in a crisis.
 
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