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Pricing and template rescource

TimToad

Active Member
sorry TIM TOAD, we are not the cast of MAD MEN, and he wasn't asked to come up with an ad campaign. doesn't seem that advertising value enters into pricing a sticker, when they have handed him the specs for what they want. it is a commodity item, anyone can print.

the logistics of locating the trucks... now that i something else. no one is shutting down operations to line up 50 trucks to make that easy

EVERY single thing we do for a client has some advertising value. We all produce advertising, marketing and promotional products and don't operate in a separate universe from other similar producers of the same kind of ADVERTISING.

Anybody can print business cards. Are they not advertising?

Is a grocery store floor graphic NOT advertising? How about a billboard? How about the sides of the semi trailer these trucks will be pulling? All decals, all advertising.
 

TimToad

Active Member
The advertising value, or the message value is the most important thing to the client. That not only includes graphic design, but choosing the most effective media to deliver the message.

My sample quote for the truck graphics was my price for the production and installation of the stickers alone, after the design and media decisions had already been made. I assumed the art was in a ready to use form.

If the client had used my design services, there would be additional charges.

Many clients are not fully aware of the options available to them, and part of my professional service is helping them make media decisions. I work closely with business owners and media specialists, and by keeping them informed I build trust. When I give prices on commodity goods like printed stickers, I have a pretty good idea of the going rate. I know that they will compare my prices to prices from other vendors serving the industry (and that the internet has made this much simpler). Building these professional relationships is essential for my business model, one that is based on trust.

I now have a base of loyal clients who continue to use my services because the are confident I am looking out for their best interests. This happy arrangement cuts down on sales time and allows me to be more productive.

Then add those costs in and post them.

You always do that. You give us part of the pricing picture and then when someone questions it, you cover yourself and say, "I didn't include, design, consulting time, etc..."

Just calling something a "commodity good" doesn't negate the fact that it is advertising that has a value into and of itself. That is a big part of the problem in this industry. Some of us can't seem to keep track of or determine what is a commodity good and what is actual a sign worthy of applying some advertising value to.

To me, the actual media we print on, the ink, laminate, etc.. are "commodity goods" What we do with them and then deliver to our clients are "added value" advertising, marketing and promotional products.
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
Then toad,
  • Why does one shop hand business cards over for $9.95 and the next guy for $89.99 ??
  • Is a small corner store different than a large chain ??
  • If the billboard is on a back road with little traffic any different from a highly traveled intersection with 8 lanes going both ways ??
Yes, all advertising is worth charging for, but how do you substantiate charging more to a person if they drive an expensive car or have a large company, different from the little mom & pop corner shoe store ??

So, what happens when people all start pulling up in old clunkers asking for a deal and you don't know who it is or how to read them ??
 

HulkSmash

New Member
lol...people wonder why they can't scale. This thread is a prime example. It's beyond depressing that amount of people who are on here destroying our industry.

First. I would be using IJ180 CV3 With 3M 8518 lamination.

$128 per vehicle for those printed decals. Nothing less. Install would run 60$ a unit 180 per vehicle total approx.

A job this small (yes it's a smaller job) you don't price by SQFT but by the job.


the logistical nightmare of lining up 50 trucks to get this done, is something you cannot fathom.
Also none of them will be clean, even if they say they will be, and you'll be installing in 90 degrees weather. Just use common sense when pricing this stuff out, and pretend you want to be successful.
 

ikarasu

Active Member
If someone wants a benz wrapped...we generally charge more than if someone wants a Civic wrapped... Even if they were exactly the same SQFT, and exactly the same curves.

Why? Generally the guy in a benz is more picky than the guy in a civic - tiny bubble, tiny wrinkle, anything thats not 100% perfect and he'll want a redo (In our experience). Plus as already mentioned, Liability... If one of our installers has his keys hanging out of his pocket and puts a scratch in the vehicle... The paint repair shop would charge us more to fix it, than they would to fix a civic.

That said... We usually find truckers arent that picky. If it's a bit crooked, or theres a bit of banding or something else... They don't care. This guy just wants his company name on his truck for advertising, if it's not 100% perfect... he's not going to complain. You can eyeball and throw them on and it'll take minutes. so we wouldn't charge this guy the "Pain in the ass tax". 95% of our installs are based on a sqft price... Then we estimate time, screw ups, and other things into the cost. this one is straight forward.

he's doing 20 trucks, so yes he'd get a break in pricing - (I missed that in the initial post, for some reason I thought it was 1 truck! And I also keep forgetting you guys are USD while We're canadian... so we're probably cheaper than some of the other posts I commented on here)) We'd likely be at around $100-125 per set of decals... but we'd do it on 3M180 + 8518 overlam, not calandered.

20 trucks we'd likely knock the install charge down... We can send 2 guys down and finish all 20 in less than a day. They seem easy enough that we can probably knock it out in half a day, but we'd factor in a full day just incase theyre dirty and not as straight forward as it seems... it never is. That's 16 hours of labor at $50 an hour labor, $800... /20 is $40 per vehicle.... We'd probably charge around $50-60 (Canadian) Per vehicle for install.

Will there be a guy out there willing to do it for cheaper... on printed, unlaminated calendared material? You bet. I'd be surprised if it lasts even a year, and we won't throw out crap work just to make a buck. Our reputation is more important than that. So if we lose the job...we lose it, there's plenty more where it came from.
 

HulkSmash

New Member
If someone wants a benz wrapped...we generally charge more than if someone wants a Civic wrapped... Even if they were exactly the same SQFT, and exactly the same curves.

Why? Generally the guy in a benz is more picky than the guy in a civic - tiny bubble, tiny wrinkle, anything thats not 100% perfect and he'll want a redo (In our experience). Plus as already mentioned, Liability... If one of our installers has his keys hanging out of his pocket and puts a scratch in the vehicle... The paint repair shop would charge us more to fix it, than they would to fix a civic.

That said... We usually find truckers arent that picky. If it's a bit crooked, or theres a bit of banding or something else... They don't care. This guy just wants his company name on his truck for advertising, if it's not 100% perfect... he's not going to complain. You can eyeball and throw them on and it'll take minutes. so we wouldn't charge this guy the "Pain in the *** tax". 95% of our installs are based on a sqft price... Then we estimate time, screw ups, and other things into the cost. this one is straight forward.

he's doing 20 trucks, so yes he'd get a break in pricing - (I missed that in the initial post, for some reason I thought it was 1 truck! And I also keep forgetting you guys are USD while We're canadian... so we're probably cheaper than some of the other posts I commented on here)) We'd likely be at around $100-125 per set of decals... but we'd do it on 3M180 + 8518 overlam, not calandered.

20 trucks we'd likely knock the install charge down... We can send 2 guys down and finish all 20 in less than a day. They seem easy enough that we can probably knock it out in half a day, but we'd factor in a full day just incase theyre dirty and not as straight forward as it seems... it never is. That's 16 hours of labor at $50 an hour labor, $800... /20 is $40 per vehicle.... We'd probably charge around $50-60 (Canadian) Per vehicle for install.

Will there be a guy out there willing to do it for cheaper... on printed, unlaminated calendared material? You bet. I'd be surprised if it lasts even a year, and we won't throw out crap work just to make a buck. Our reputation is more important than that. So if we lose the job...we lose it, there's plenty more where it came from.


Weird concept - Personally our quality doesn't change, no matter the customer. But.. i do get where you're coming from.. which is why we're strictly business to business.
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
Folks, we're talking about a piece of vinyl less the 12" high and 48" wide.... on two sides of a truck hood.... maybe laminated. Anyone confusing this with my statement of a Mercedes and a VW..... well, just doesn't belong in this conversation. 4 sq ft of vinyl is 4 sq ft of vinyl.... is 4 sq ft of vinyl. Regardless of what the person drove up in, his income or his background, regardless of commodity or not, regardless of anything...... what does it take to produce 4 sq ft of printed vinyl and then instal on a very easy panel ?? How ridiculous and far off track can you people even take this ?? This is beyond silly, it borders on just plaint NUTZ.
 

ikarasu

Active Member
Weird concept - Personally our quality doesn't change, no matter the customer. But.. i do get where you're coming from.. which is why we're strictly business to business.
We'll re-do whole panels if we don't think the job is good, whether it's a job thats staying up for 1 day, or 1 week. We always try to do our best... but at least in wraps, no vehicle comes in in 100% good condition.

All new vehicle paint jobs seem to have dust or specs sticking out in them... They're not that noticeable unless you run your hand over it. When you put vinyl overtop however... the customer can see it and presumes theres dust, or cant accept that their paint job isn't perfect. We had one guy in a benz complain because of a few specs... We already saw them, removed the wrap.. saw it was the paint job, and put the wrap back on and made a note of it. The guy noticed them... Had us remove the panel and show him, then said we should be sanding any specs down for him. We told him we weren't an auto body shop... Since his vehicle was brand new, if he wanted he could bring it to the dealer he just bought it from and ask them to do it, bring it back and we'll re-wrap the panel... So he did, and the dealer just laughed at him and said no (His words, not ours). We weren't going to take a sanding block to a brand new vehicle, so he just accepted there was nothing short of paying to get the panel repainted, which he didn't want to do... and accepted how it looked, but ended up being a very unhappy customer.

We spent hours more on that install than a normal one.. Not everyone is like that, but generally if you come in with a $50,000 car it gets more scrutinized and everything has to be 100%, so you take more time, put in more effort... order more material incase of any tiny mistakes, etc.

I'm not saying we'd charge double... but we do throw an extra couple hundred onto the quote... Mainly because we hate working with BMW's / Lambos, theyre a pain in the ass to wrap. I don't know about there... but generally it's standard practice here. We exchange quotes with a few other wrap shops around just to see what eachothers pricing is... and they usually treat luxury cars different also. Just like auto mechanics, painters, detailers generally charge more for luxury vehicles... The bigger the risk the more the cost.
 

TimToad

Active Member
Then toad,
  • Why does one shop hand business cards over for $9.95 and the next guy for $89.99 ??
  • Is a small corner store different than a large chain ??
  • If the billboard is on a back road with little traffic any different from a highly traveled intersection with 8 lanes going both ways ??
Yes, all advertising is worth charging for, but how do you substantiate charging more to a person if they drive an expensive car or have a large company, different from the little mom & pop corner shoe store ??

So, what happens when people all start pulling up in old clunkers asking for a deal and you don't know who it is or how to read them ??

I'm not the one basing my pricing on what someone drives up in. Throw that sh!t at whoever is.
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
Knowing that only rookies and fly by nighters wouldn't laminate printed decals, folks in your area is charging less than $6.50 per square foot for a full color, digitally printed CAST wrap decal ( possibly diecut ) with laminate?
FFS, no wonder this industry is being eaten from within.
IT'S NOT ONLY THE SHEER PRICE OF THE DECAL OR VINYL THAT NEEDS TO BE CONSIDERED.
Everything we do has an intrinsic advertising value attached to it.
We rob ourselves, our progeny and our industry if we leave that much money on the table.
What's a semi like that cost brand new? $125K or more? But we're going to throw $50 bucks worth of intermediate vinyl without laminate on it. Sheesh!
I'd be closer to equippaint's pricing on th

Right there's YOUR sh!t in your own writing, toad. Sure, you'll have some way of worming out of it, but that's you. You said the other stuff, too, but it's just not worth the time regurgitating your on-going rhetoric. Why do you write this stuff, then back-pedal all the time ?? It was nicer around here, when you weren't posting the other week. That was about the calmest 2 weeks this place has seen in 5 years.
 

kcollinsdesign

Old member
Then add those costs in and post them.

You always do that. You give us part of the pricing picture and then when someone questions it, you cover yourself and say, "I didn't include, design, consulting time, etc..."

Just calling something a "commodity good" doesn't negate the fact that it is advertising that has a value into and of itself. That is a big part of the problem in this industry. Some of us can't seem to keep track of or determine what is a commodity good and what is actual a sign worthy of applying some advertising value to.

To me, the actual media we print on, the ink, laminate, etc.. are "commodity goods" What we do with them and then deliver to our clients are "added value" advertising, marketing and promotional products.
Fair enough. Custom graphic design starts with a meeting where we discuss the clients needs. then I quote the design project, which is based on time, expenses and deliverables. My minimum is $25 for a quick layout that takes a couple minutes to $???. If the client is purchasing all rights, then I consider the market and price accordingly. Individual single-use rights are explicitly stated and is priced lower (still covering my time, expenses, deliverables, and profit).

I wasn't there, but this project looks like it would have needed an accurate set of measurements, a set of "idea sketches", a refined design subject to approval, and a set of deliverables (depending on the rights sold). If the client only wanted the stickers, I would have reserved the rights and the only deliverables would have been the stickers. In most cases, I can convince the client to buy all rights, which, in this case would have just about doubled the price of the design. My price estimate for the design would likely have been in the neighborhood of $255.00, and all rights would be $510.00. That would have added $12.75 per sticker to my sticker price (all rights) to the original order, or $38.85 each (I don't price this way, but for this example I broke it down). I would do a repeat order for $26.10 each (price adjusted for quantity, but let's assume he wanted 40 more). If the client did not want to purchase all rights, this first order would have broken down to $32.48 each. The client would have to pay me for additional rights if he wanted to use somebody else for repeat orders or anything else.

My estimate would have looked something like this:

Design (limited rights): $255.00
Design (all rights): $510.00
40 stickers per specs: $1044.00
Installation: $16.25/truck ($325.00) plus drive time (estimated separately depending on where I need to go and how many trips).

If the client had the time, he might find a less expensive source. That's fine, I still charge the client for the design work, and give the client a comprehensive set of deliverables and use rights (source files, jpgs, purchased images).

I agree with others that driving around finding the trucks will be costly. My travel rate is same as my shop rate plus $1/mile. If the client was in town, I probably wouldn't charge for travel time unless I had to do them a few at a time.
 

TimToad

Active Member
Right there's YOUR sh!t in your own writing, toad. Sure, you'll have some way of worming out of it, but that's you. You said the other stuff, too, but it's just not worth the time regurgitating your on-going rhetoric. Why do you write this stuff, then back-pedal all the time ?? It was nicer around here, when you weren't posting the other week. That was about the calmest 2 weeks this place has seen in 5 years.

You have got to be kidding.

How could anyone with an IQ above 75 extrapolate my guessing what the cost of a new Peterbilt costs and expressing astonishment over the low grade crap the OP intended to use on a fleet of them as me judging a customer by what they drive up in? Sheesh! You can't be this dense.

Don't worry, I've watched your act in the background for two weeks and you've not let up on anybody in the insults, condescension and flaming department. It's really too bad the management doesn't care what you say or to who.
 

equippaint

Active Member
Fair enough. Custom graphic design starts with a meeting where we discuss the clients needs. then I quote the design project, which is based on time, expenses and deliverables. My minimum is $25 for a quick layout that takes a couple minutes to $???. If the client is purchasing all rights, then I consider the market and price accordingly. Individual single-use rights are explicitly stated and is priced lower (still covering my time, expenses, deliverables, and profit).

I wasn't there, but this project looks like it would have needed an accurate set of measurements, a set of "idea sketches", a refined design subject to approval, and a set of deliverables (depending on the rights sold). If the client only wanted the stickers, I would have reserved the rights and the only deliverables would have been the stickers. In most cases, I can convince the client to buy all rights, which, in this case would have just about doubled the price of the design. My price estimate for the design would likely have been in the neighborhood of $255.00, and all rights would be $510.00. That would have added $12.75 per sticker to my sticker price (all rights) to the original order, or $38.85 each (I don't price this way, but for this example I broke it down). I would do a repeat order for $26.10 each (price adjusted for quantity, but let's assume he wanted 40 more). If the client did not want to purchase all rights, this first order would have broken down to $32.48 each. The client would have to pay me for additional rights if he wanted to use somebody else for repeat orders or anything else.

My estimate would have looked something like this:

Design (limited rights): $255.00
Design (all rights): $510.00
40 stickers per specs: $1044.00
Installation: $16.25/truck ($325.00) plus drive time (estimated separately depending on where I need to go and how many trips).

If the client had the time, he might find a less expensive source. That's fine, I still charge the client for the design work, and give the client a comprehensive set of deliverables and use rights (source files, jpgs, purchased images).

I agree with others that driving around finding the trucks will be costly. My travel rate is same as my shop rate plus $1/mile. If the client was in town, I probably wouldn't charge for travel time unless I had to do them a few at a time.
For the love of God, if you want $510 for your design, then charge them $510 and drop all of the nonsense. There are no variable costs in it. How the hell do you guys get anything done? Its a dumb sticker, throw it together and be done with it just like the guy did. No need to setup creative meetings, renditions and all that. Call the dude, tell him to give you the measurements you need and move on to the next job.
 

Z SIGNS

New Member
If they brought the trucks to me I would charge $250 per truck. If I had to go on the road and play hide and seek to get the job done I'd be $500 per truck. Anything less I would not be making any money.I could probably charge less if I worked out of my house with no employees,insurance, and overhead. I would be using the finest materials available. I am not concerned with the cost of materials because they have nothing to do with what I charge.
And yes the guy with the Benz gets charged more. It's just normal business to "size up" a potential customer. I look at his shoes his car and other things he spends money on. If he is happy to spend extra for superior service and products I am happy to help him.
I learned a long time ago you can not be profitable selling your self by the sq. foot. This puts you on the same level as deli operator selling meat by the pound.
 

HulkSmash

New Member
Fair enough. Custom graphic design starts with a meeting where we discuss the clients needs. then I quote the design project, which is based on time, expenses and deliverables. My minimum is $25 for a quick layout that takes a couple minutes to $???. If the client is purchasing all rights, then I consider the market and price accordingly. Individual single-use rights are explicitly stated and is priced lower (still covering my time, expenses, deliverables, and profit).

I wasn't there, but this project looks like it would have needed an accurate set of measurements, a set of "idea sketches", a refined design subject to approval, and a set of deliverables (depending on the rights sold). If the client only wanted the stickers, I would have reserved the rights and the only deliverables would have been the stickers. In most cases, I can convince the client to buy all rights, which, in this case would have just about doubled the price of the design. My price estimate for the design would likely have been in the neighborhood of $255.00, and all rights would be $510.00. That would have added $12.75 per sticker to my sticker price (all rights) to the original order, or $38.85 each (I don't price this way, but for this example I broke it down). I would do a repeat order for $26.10 each (price adjusted for quantity, but let's assume he wanted 40 more). If the client did not want to purchase all rights, this first order would have broken down to $32.48 each. The client would have to pay me for additional rights if he wanted to use somebody else for repeat orders or anything else.

My estimate would have looked something like this:

Design (limited rights): $255.00
Design (all rights): $510.00
40 stickers per specs: $1044.00
Installation: $16.25/truck ($325.00) plus drive time (estimated separately depending on where I need to go and how many trips).

If the client had the time, he might find a less expensive source. That's fine, I still charge the client for the design work, and give the client a comprehensive set of deliverables and use rights (source files, jpgs, purchased images).

I agree with others that driving around finding the trucks will be costly. My travel rate is same as my shop rate plus $1/mile. If the client was in town, I probably wouldn't charge for travel time unless I had to do them a few at a time.

i respect your, um, hustle. But please do not give advice to people when it's actually this awful. It's actually damaging to someone trying to build a successful business.
 

Texas_Signmaker

Very Active Signmaker
Pass on this job and that hideous graphic and the headache of finding 20 trucks all over town. Find a better job to do.
 
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